Primary school hearing

[MammaC21]

Hello. Has anyone here attended a primary school appeal hearing? It seems us mums that applied all have a hearing at the same time on the same date? We’re a little confused as to what this process means or what’s going to happen, thanks

I gather this is not unusual as a first round for the appeals.

What grounds are you appealing on? – a lot of experts on this board who may be able to advise. If you want advice that is! But be aware that it’s very hard to win a primary appeal bc of the ICS rule.

ETA I believe the LA has to give you any reasonable information so I presume you could ask for clarification as to what will happen at this first hearing.

A few things really! She’s been there coming up 18 months, like most children she finds it really hard meeting new people she’s only just I’d say this past 6 months come out of her shell and developed relationships of her own back, her only friend for a long time was the teacher.
and also friend whose child goes to said school sometimes collects her for me when I get stuck on calls WFH. I wouldn’t have that option at the school she’s been given as I don’t know anyone going there either, well not well enough to trust collecting my child.
I know there gone over PAN to 93 already as 3 got a different school but had siblings so they had to go over.
but speaking with staff at new school, they know people who have got the school we want but they want the one we’ve been given (if that makes sense) I don’t get why they don’t just swap them back!

If it is an Infant Class Size appeal you will only win if a procedural error meant your dc did not get a place or the decision was judged perverse. Even if there were issues there may be others ahead of them according to the priority admissions criteria. Logistics and attending nursery classes rarely are sufficient.

I’m sorry @MammaC21 but none of those reasons will win an ICS appeal.

The fact that the school has already gone over PAN by having to admit siblings (presume a mistake was made there) doesn't help your appeal and actually means a WL place is less likely (as four DC would have to leave to open up a WL place).

I appreciate that logistics are tricky for you but that's not something the appeal panel can take into account. Did you accept the offered place? I would be looking into possible childminders or after-school club there in case you need to use them. And talk up the school as much as possible. Can you try and set up some playdates with DC who are going there in the next couple of months?

Do you think it’s pointless to attend then? I just think why are they bothering with giving us a hearing if it’s full it’s full you know, that’s where I’m hopeful maybe some children have dropped off and school aren’t aware yet as it’s all through council

It’s your right to appeal for any school you applied to and were not allocated, so they have to stage the appeal hearing, even though they may be well aware that the answer will almost certainly be no.

Whether it is pointless is you decision. You might feel that you want to exhaust every avenue. But I wouldn't be too hopeful, sorry.

If DC had rejected places (as I say it would need to be four DC), those would be allocated via the waiting list. Are you on that? What position are you on it?

Awwww I know I’m just trying to do my best by her that’s all if I don’t try I won’t know.
after school clubs and childminders it wouldn’t always be necessary I work for a call center incoming calls so it could literally be a spare of the moment it’s 2:45 customers yapping away and I’ve had to call friend to say can you grab her. Not like I can book there and then for afterschool club for in 15 mins or a childminder you know what I mean. I am supposed to leave at 2:30 to give plenty of time but some people like to talk..for England 😂

I did accept 2nd school yes just to be on the safe side, I know deep down she will make new friends and will settle eventually it just weighs heavy on the heart at the moment seeing her so sad about leaving her besties

I suppose I can attend and try that’s all I can do! Yes she is 5th on waiting list,

Because it is a legal right to appeal and have a hearing. If they have already gone three over PAN, four have to leave or turn down the offer before any others can be offered a place from wl. If any appeals are successful that number increases. Bear in mind others can join wl and may be placed ahead if they meet admissions criteria more closely.

First of all - yes infant class size appeals are harder to win (need an error or breach of law or perverse decision as pp said). BUT just to clarify for any future readers, this only applies to years R to 2, not all of primary. Sounds like this is reception though.

As regards this individual appeal. It does sound odd that they admitted 3 extra due to being siblings? I presume the school didn’t realise the 3 were siblings and so didn’t offer them a place at first in error, but then when the error was pointed out they realised they had to offer (as these families would have won an appeal).

It also sounds a bit odd that others who prefer the school you’ve been offered have been offered this school instead and vice versa. I guess this can happen if you live closer to the school they want and they live closer to the school you want. However this would be worth raising at appeal just in case there has been an error. Especially since it sounds like there was definitely an error on siblings- it’s possible the admissions dept just isn’t all that on the ball.

As regards how appeal hearings work. If multiple families appeal for the same school then there is a group hearing for the school’s side of the case (their admissions criteria, how applications were processed, why they are full & can’t take another child etc) and everyone can ask questions about the school’s case together. Then you have individual hearings where you put your case about your individual child. Then - IF multiple families meet the criteria to win an appeal - the panel has to decide how many it thinks the school can take and which children should get those places. This is pretty rare though especially in infant class size appeals.

Hello yes it is for reception! Yes they did make an error in regards to the 3 extra with siblings and head had to authorise them to be accepted in, it did make me think what other mistakes could have been made. I don’t understand why they don’t just swap the people who want to swap make everyone happy 😂
I’m going to attend the meeting and hope for the best what will be will be

A lot of schools all do their own admissions so there is no central point where someone would realise about people wanting to swap. I also don't see how this can happen unless someone filled in their form incorrectly, or changed their mind after allocation. It may be the case that someone currently at the new school nursery just told them that because they didn't want to admit they preferred the other school.
There is no process for this, but you could try asking the school to pass your number to the person wanting to swap, and if they contact you and really do want to swap, approaching the schools together to see if you can come to some arrangement. It may or may not work.

Sorry do you mean she is in the nursery setting at the school and this is for a reception place?

@Justploddingonandon I'm afraid admissions doesn't work like that, you can't find someone who wants to swap and then arrange a swap, it's all a strict statutory code. If the school has places refused by parents then those places have to be reallocated by the waiting list. Even when a school does their own admissions, they are still bound by the admissions code so can't just swap children with another school

As a couple of other posters have said, as it's an infant class size appeal, it makes it more difficult to win. As there is evidence of other errors, it's worth checking that the other admissions criteria has been applied correctly (you can ask for last distance admitted for example and for their admitted numbers)
In your case your grounds for appeal are weak, you'd be expected to book after school care or a child minder anyway or speak to your employer about your finishing times. Friends are seen as fluid unless there has been a particular trauma associated with this, plus again, because this is an infant class size appeal it's more about numbers and whether anyone has made a procedural error

Yes

The only way I can see that a swap could work is if both families are #1 on the waiting list for the school they prefer.
In that case both families would agree to turn down their offered school (the one the other family wants) knowing that they will then get a place from the WL to their preferred school.
You’d have to really trust the other family though!

Anyway it doesn’t sound like you are #1 OP so not relevant here.

I do agree your best hope is that some kind of error comes to light, and that error meant your DD should have got a place but didn’t. Not likely but worth checking especially as there was clearly one error made.

Ah ok;
I would definitely attend the hearing and see what is going on.
Some people won’t bother, some people who have a space in your first choice might decline - people’s circumstances all change.

My friend had this with secondary school places and she got a space on appeal as afew didn’t confirm their spaces and maybe moved or changed preference so I would say don’t give up hope.

If people move, or for other reasons don't take up their space though, those places are allocated via the waiting list, not through appeals. Of course you can be on the WL and also appeal. But the OP says she is fifth on the WL and bc of the sibling errors and the year being 3 over PAN anyway, that means for the Op to get a WL place, eight people will have to change their minds about the school or move away. Not impossible obvs.

I still personally would attend the hearing tho @MammaC21 having got this far with it; and I agree with others, check there has not been a mistake with your application too. Are you very close to the school? If you check the last allocated distance in the criterion you fall under, and it is further away than you live, then a mistake may have been made. Always worth checking (apolsif you have already done this ofc).

@minipie that doesn't work like that either, no one is guaranteed to be number 1 on the waiting list in your scenario, because in-between rejecting a place and 'swapping' (which incidentally can't happen between parents anyway) your place on the waiting list could change (nothing to do with trusting the other family!)
Admissions and waiting lists don't have a 'swapping' system or everyone would be at it and the appeal system wouldn't be a statutory obligation...

Well both families would have to reject their offered place on the same day and then chase up their WL place immediately so there wasn’t any risk of “in between” … but I agree it’s risky and anyway it’s never going to happen like this!!

Nope, still not possible... Just imagine if this was actually something that was allowed, there would be money changing hands and all sorts

I did contact the council to give this information but they claimed they couldn’t due to GDPR 😫 so I have no idea ! But we are under the distance category. The school we want is 0.4 miles away and the one we got is 0.3 miles away

As I understand it the LA is obliged to tell you the furthest admitted distance. Obviously not details of name or anything else but I don't see how "a child was admitted who lived 0.23 miles away" breaks any GDPR guidelines.

But in any case, the school you have been allocated is closer? I infer you are in a biggish city and heavily populated area to have two schools so close – so even with the three-class intake in your desired school, chances are the distance offered is less than the distance you are from the school. You've been allocated a closer school anyway so I imagine a lot of DC local to you will be going there, which is a positive.