Year 5 maths - is the jump in difficulty normally this brutal?

[NotAMathsPerson]

My eldest is in Year 5 and it feels like she has hit a massive wall with maths this term. She used to be absolutely fine with it but now fractions and long division are causing actual tears at the kitchen table.

We try to keep homework sessions to 10 or 15 mins max so she doesn't get overwhelmed. But honestly it is just becoming a daily battle. Half the time I feel like I am confusing her more because the methods the school uses are so different to how I learned things.

Are any other parents finding this with Year 5? What actually works for getting them through the tricky topics without everyone ending up totally stressed out? Just feel a bit out of my depth trying to help her at the moment.

Does the school have a 'methods' booklet? Our primary school held parent workshops to explain the methods, then gave us booklets. You could ask if they have any resources.

That's a brilliant shout actually. I've probably missed an email about a workshop at some point!

I'll have a dig around on the school website tonight and see if they've got anything uploaded. If not I'll try and catch the teacher next week. Thanks for this.

we're having this in year 4 - already doing long division in year 4 and i dont feel like my child has mastered it at all, it's complicated!

I had similar with my twins. My methods for long division were very different to what they were taught. ‘Bus Stop’ was a thing for them. This was back in covid times. There were a lot of tears. Now ex h is a teacher and he couldn’t help at all.

Long division is the same but just writing down the answer each time
You could pre write out some of it to show where they write stuff in.

Im not sure when my eldest learnt long division but by jan y6 still couldnt do it and we did some at home and it was fine.

Are you sure she has all the foundations/ was fine before? My child is in year 4, and has done fractions and long division since the start of year 4.
I’m wondering if she has missed some fundamental knowledge ( illness, not paying attention,… ), and is now struggling?

YouTube is really useful

Try fun games, practice on mobile phones, different types of practice going back to year 4 or 3 to master the basics. Math-Center Org has a wide selection of such practice to go step by step, also for mobile phones.

I got a book Maths for Mum and Dads to help us with different methods when DC were in Primary. DH and I both have Maths A-Levels so not adverse to tricky maths.

My son is struggling because he missed large chunks of both Year 3 and Year 4 due to illness so he's completely lost. He has a tutor because we're still at learning basic times tables.

Maybe take it back to basics at home? To be completely sure it isn't because she isn't grasping some of the steps she needs to know before fractions and long division. Breaking it all down in chunks has helped my son.

Assuming you are in England, long division is on the National Curriculum for Year 6, so schools that are doing it earlier aren't actually following the curriculum.

Wait until she has to do calculus

Yes the Year 5 jump is brutal, you're not imagining it. Fractions and long division are where loads of kids who were previously fine suddenly hit a wall. And you're so right about the methods being different to how we learned, I ended up confusing my DS more than helping him half the time. Two things made a difference for us. First, I stopped trying to teach him my way and just focused on making practice feel less miserable. Anything with a gamification angle, short bursts, earning points, beating yesterday's score, took the tears out of it because it felt like a game rather than homework. Second, 10-15 minute sessions like you're doing is absolutely the right call, little and often beats long painful sessions every time. The understanding does come, it just takes longer for some kids to click with the abstract stuff, and fractions are genuinely hard conceptually. She'll get there, especially with a parent who's paying attention and not just leaving it to the school. My DH made a website(He's a senior software engineer) for our DS. it's online and open to anyone. hmu if you're interested

The thing I found is the school teaches multiple ways to do the same thing. Some are longer but less error-prone, some are shorter but require more mental arithmetic or just a child that “gets it”. By Y6 they’re expected to choose their own method for SATs but also demo all the options. So I wouldn’t start adding your way into that mix, just follow what the teachers are doing.

I agree long division is y6. Not sure what the school is hoping to achieve by adding it early.
I'd go back a step. Is she secure at using the bus stop.method for short division? Understanding this is key before moving on to.long division.

Have a look at
https://corbettmaths.com/primary/
Loads of videos and practice questions.
(Is great as you move to the secondary phase too)

Sorry I meant to add Y 5 can feel like a big step up to many children. This is where going back to the previous step & ensuring that they are secure on that can really help.

My sons year 5 not having this issue at all. He’s actually complaining it’s to basic.

Yes it's a big jump. Most of Y4 is just building on Y3 (which is a big jump from Y2) so children get lulled into a bit of a false sense of security. Y6 builds on Y5 in a similar way so the jump tends to be slightly less bad than Y4 to Y5. Fractions is a big jump, especially if you didn't fully master improper fractions in Y4.

I don't know why children are doing long division in Y4 and wonder if pps actually mean short division (e.g. 472 divided by 4). Even then, there is no curriculum requirement to use a formal method on Y4 - flexible partitioning is fine (although often harder than short division).

Definitely long division in year 4 here!
I can’t remember a bug jump for my older child (now in secondary school) , it was always very gradually .

Have you questioned why, given it's not on the curriculum until Y6? One of the big ideas of the 'new' (2015) curriculum was to stretch children within year group objectives, not move them on to work from other year groups. I'm genuinely very surprised by this thread as teaching well beyond year group objectives it's not what is discussed on teaching forums or amongst teachers I speak to at local schools.

Long division is NOT year 4 curriculum it’s not even year 5 curriculum. School should NOT be teaching it unless this is an independent school where they can do what they like.

Maybe gradual introduction of concepts works better than big jumps? To be honest, it works , the kids aren’t missing something, and they seem to make smoother progress than other kids according to the thread here, so why would i question it?
Oldest us coming up to gcse now, and doing well in maths (he’s not a natural at maths), so i’m good.

Because the curriculum already is gradual! Division is actually one of the better written parts of it. Starting long division in Y4 almost certainly means missing prior steps and building on pretty shaky foundations. For many individual children it won't matter and fair enough as a parent I can see why you'd not questions it but it sounds like poor practice if that is their general approach. My school, which is well above the national average for deprivation, got 100% of children to age expected in maths SATS last year by following the curriculum, demonstrating it's just not necessary.

Edit for clarity

Pretty much all the kids from my older child’s class are doing very well now coming up to GCSE (its a one form entry school, so i know how most are doing), not a shaky foundation in sight.
There is no one way to a good education, different ways can work well. I tend to prefer a flexible approach to adhering to the principles just because .
if your way works for you - great. But our school’s way works for the kids as well.

Are you in a fairly affluent area with engaged parents? I just don't buy at all that the average Y4 can master long division, working two years ahead of the maths curriculum which is already at least a year ahead of the pre-2015 curriculum, when the expectation isn't even for children to know all times tables until the end of Y4? As this thread has shown, many children find the maths curriculum challenging as it is. I've taught LKS2 for 10 years in different schools that get excellent results and am certainly not inflexible but I base my teaching on experience of teaching many, many children.