Move school to an oversubscribed one

[Yats17]

Hi, I'm wondering if someone can help me understand how school preferences work.

We have decided our year 1 son probably needs to move school unfortunately to somewhere with a bigger focus on behaviour and attainment. Current school is v warm and a 12 min walk away. However the challenging demographics, high number of SEN, and the fact my sons are bright but easily led and overly boisterous, means that we think things will become worse for us at this school.

However it seems most schools near us are similar (we are in southwark london). Ive found one possible school and put DS1 on the waiting list, but im not optimistic as we are number 41.

We have DS2s primary place applications coming up now, so I wonder if I put him down for this over subscribed school as 1st choice, and current school as second choice? Then my thinking is if DS2 gets a place then that would bump up DS1 on the waiting list too. But if DS2 gets a place, and they can't find a place for DS1 we would have to go the original school as we can't logistically manage them at 2 different schools.

So would we then be able to reject our 1st choice school and go for the second choice school?

Do you feel that your eldest child is not working as well as he might?

Presumably, if you are 41st on the waiting list, you are some distance away from the school you are waiting for. What are the criteria in your area? If distance from the school is one of the top ones, you’re probably going to be in the same position.

I’m assuming you’ve applied and put the current school as your first choice and you’re hoping that, if you change your preference, you’ll get a place at your new preference. I think the same criteria will apply and that it will be difficult to get a place based on distance. Even if you did, assuming a very low birth rate, or some other circumstance in reception, it wouldn’t guarantee your older child a place, because the year group may be full.

If sibling priority is listed in their admissions criteria you are right that it would move your first son up the list. If he's only 41st now though, there's a high chance there will still be a fair few ahead of him, all waiting for spaces to become available. So if your second child did get a space, there are still no guarantees your eldest will get a place any time soon.

If the current school is listed as your second preference and you get your first choice (new school), you will only be able to change to the current school for your second child if they have spaces remaining. If they are oversubscribed that year, you wouldn't have the option of sending him there to be with his brother.

It would be a risk.

So would we then be able to reject our 1st choice school and go for the second choice school?

The system doesn't just let you go, "We have changed our minds so we'll have choice 2 instead, thanks."

You could reject your first choice in those circumstances, but it would be more sensible to keep it and ask to go on the waiting list for school 2, because if all its places have been allocated you will be relying on enough people turning them down that you move up the waiting list. Southwark is one of the boroughs which has had a lot of vacant places but they have been dealing with it by reducing PAN and closing schools, so even if previously your choice 2 has been undersubscribed, there is a chance it wouldn't be this year.

No you would have to put ds2 on the waiting list for school 2 whether he would have got a place had you made it first preference or not. 41st is a long way to expect a place to appear, how many above are siblings?

Thanks for responses. @Bluevelvetsofa that's right, academically definitely no real push, but more importantly lots of not great behaviour issues cropping up that schools not that bothered about addressing.

Ah I hadn't considered that DS2 would have to go on a waiting list for the current school if we put it as 2nd choice. Its not really an oversubscribed school from what I can make out, which is why im thinking a wait list wouldn't be so bad.

Regarding the new school, I don't know how many on the waiting list are siblings. Hm, I might try and ask the school to get a better sense of how the waiting list operates and how fast its moving.

What is interesting is that i met a family whose son got into this oversubscribed school last year despite living further away than us, which is what makes me think it might be worth trying.

Have a look to see what the furthest distance offered last year was. You might be lucky!

Sometimes sibling priority only works for younger siblings of existing pupils, not for older ones. It also never applies until the initial child is a pupil - so eg until your younger child starts in Sept 2026, they will have no influence on your older child’s waiting list position.

Depends what their circumstances were. They may just have got lucky with a space appearing at the right moment, or might have an ehcp naming that school, if there were no spaces in any local schools got in as an excepted pupil under Fair Access Protocol, or had a successful appeal to take the class over 30 if year 3 or older.

You need to actually read the admissions criteria.

Just checking you've also looked at good schools with better behaviour in neighburing boroughs? Not just Southwark. Might work depending on where you're located.

Due to falling birth rates many schools that have been oversubscribed in the past are now undersubscribed and have spaces. I wouldn't wait for the one you're 41st in line for. I'd get on compare school results (the .gov website) and ofsted and facebook mums and dads group and find a better school with space now. At primary level there should be more options than you're aware of now.

As PP said, your eldest wouldn’t move up the list due to sibling preference until your youngest started.

And even if (unlikely!) that moved your eldest to the very top of the list, you would still be waiting for a child to leave (and possibly a few children if the school is over PAN after admitting some on appeal, say)

Southwark has something like 25% fewer children than it did 10 years ago - very, very few schools are oversubscribed, let alone having a waiting list of 41. I’m now wondering which one that is!

I reckon, be creative about which schools you think might work. I don’t know where you are in Southwark, but (for instance) Angel Oak isn’t fashionable because it’s by Burgess Park. But it’s known for discipline and achievement. In a way that lots of parents don’t like, but it might be what you’re after.

Thanks everyone, lots if food for thought.

Annoyingly our search criteria is quite specific. Near us there are lots of primary schools, half are religious which scratches them off the list for us, and I would say 2/3 have the same low achievement issues as current school. Quite a few of these i suspect are also at risk of being shut in coming years sadly as demographic decline continues. We also need a school that is on the way to work for us both, and has a nursery attached to the school available 9-6 for DD3 as we are both full time workers.

That all actually leaves v few schools even when we include lambeth schools.

There are only 2 schools we have found that fit the criteria. This one (option 1) where DS1 is number 41 on the waiting list, a second one (option 2) that seems to not be oversubscribed as they seem to have the ability to stretch between 2 or 3 classes. Annoyingly when DH phoned to ask if they had space for DS1 to move there last term they said no, and they don't operate a waiting list. Which in retrospect sounds weird.

I think we should ask both schools if they would take DS1 if DS2 got in ie would they stretch class sizes in year 2. Currently it feels like option 2 would be able to do that whereas option 1 is limited to 2 classes so we would have to wait in the improbable waiting list for DS1.

In Year 2, schools are still bound by ICS regulations - no more than 30 per class.

While Option 2 might look as if it can be expanded to 3 classes per year, it is going to try hard not to, because of the extra cost of the 3rd class teacher et al. While they would obviously split into 3 classes for eg 75 or 80 pupils, they would try hard not to for 61, especially as in Year 3 they could go back down to 2 classes of a bit over 30.

I don’t know if you could force them to via appeal (the school could argue that the cost of admitting that extra child is extreme - a whole teacher’s salary - vs the benefit to your child) but you should not rely on an extra class being made. To admit a 31st child at appeal in Y2, you are facing a much higher bar - that it is unreasonable not to admit (ie a decision no reasonable person would make) or that a mistake has been made.

When you refer to low achievement do you mean the SAT scores? There is a sizeable private tutoring mini industry in the area propped up by the parents of pupils at some of the 'high achieving' Southwark primary schools which may mask the school's actual teaching quality.

Ah I see how it's tricky.

Yes I'd definitely chase both schools again, in particular #2. Not having a space and not operating a waiting list doesn't really make sense. You could also check with the local authority if they have any role in admissions as it sounds like they are deliberately fobbing off additional students and I don't know if that's allowed?

And then in terms of criteria I understand not wanting a religious school, I didn't either as I'm not religious and from a country where all state schools are secular, but my kids are at a CofE school and it is very low-key in terms of religion.

This is a very secular country despite having a long tradition of religious schools and I can now see why. I'm not sure if any of the teachers are really religious themselves, and it seems to be about kindness generally rather than anything intensely religious, and blended in with the framework of a UNICEF rights-respecting school, so both are discussed in terms of values.

And if it is a balance between some very lowkey religious messages around kindness or bad behaviour, maybe the behaviour is worse?

Why do you not want a faith school?
Some CofE ones are just CofE because they were when the school opened in 1850 or whenever but really it's not a big thing.
You don't always have to belong to that faith to attend.

Annoyingly when DH phoned to ask if they had space for DS1 to move there last term they said no, and they don't operate a waiting list.

Did you actually apply to this school? I think if you put in an in-year application and are unsuccessful, they may have to operate a waiting list, but I am not 100% certain.

Southwark has something like 25% fewer children than it did 10 years ago - very, very few schools are oversubscribed, let alone having a waiting list of 41. I’m now wondering which one that is!

Now that OP has mentioned enquiring last term (ie when DS1 was in reception), I wonder if this was a waiting list of people who initially had this school as first preference but who are now happily settled in a different school after a year, and the school just hasn't refreshed the list.

@cantkeepawayforever yeah I suspect youre right and option 2 are around 60 at mo so definitely wouldn't want to add a 3rd class despite having a PAN of 3. Im not 100% sure though so need to ask. Option 1 only has a PAN of 2 so doesn't have a choice.

@Shonashine yes im looking at sats and % reaching expected standards. I take these with a pinch of salt though as I think they more reflect the demographics of a school. The schools nearest to us are below LA and national averages for years. If we stayed at this school we would probably have to consider a tutor as many parents at the school do. I'd rather not do this.

@SheilaFentiman yes thats right, option 2 had previously been on our number 2 choice, but I guess as we didn't ask to go on the waiting list at the time 18 months ago I thought we could ask to go on a waiting list for if any new spaces come up.

Re faith schools - we weren't against them as we dont necessarily disagree with philosphy per se even though we are not religious. Only 1 was vaguely on the way to our work and had good attainment levels so we did visit. It just doesn't have a nursery, and is over subscribed and with smaller acceptance groups for people who don't attend their affiliated church.

Anyway, we have a visit with option 2 in next week now to ask about possibility of DS1 joining in year 2.

This is all way harder than we expected and feels like big decisions as it will set the pattern of our family life for the next 10 years or so. All a bit overwhelming so appreciate everyone's input!

Wouldn’t it just be easier to address your child’s behaviour and not blame others!

He’s not living in a vacuum though. It’s very tricky for your average 5yo to have great behaviour when it’s a “challenging” class. Monkey see, monkey do.

Even if not a joiner in the mayhem often the noise and lack of discipline means there isn’t a lot of learning going on as teacher is constantly fire fighting issues.

My son is 7th on the waiting list for our first choice 630m, 8th for our second choice 1km away and 22nd for our third choice 550m away in Southwark and our allocated school is 2.5km away. Very keen to know where you got your stats from as I am making an appeal.

Hello, wow that is crazy! Happy to pm to find out more.

So our situation has moved on a bit since this message. We have significant safeguarding concerns with current school and had a meeting today to formally complain. Our priority is now getting our kids out of there.

Our DS2 has now been given a place for reception at our 2nd choice which is 15 mins away. I have just gone and handed in an inyear transfer form for DS1 toothed same school for transfer in Sept to year 2. The office lady tells me that it will depend on kids leaving for space. I find this hard to understand as they have 3 classes currently, in year 1 for 62 kids I believe. Head said previously they would see what they could do especially if DS2 gets in.

School 1 we haven't gotten as expected (usually 500m distance offers school told me). DS1 is 46 on the list when I asked the school a few weeks ago. Dont know about DS2. Im not sure how to find out waitlist place as I think Southwark still hold the waiting list for a period before handing to the school I beleive.

If an academy as our school choice 1, then you have to apply to school directly for in year transfer and they hold the waiting list. I beleive I saw somewhere on Southwark's website that for Reception Southwark hold waiting lists for a few weeks, before handing them back to academies to manage directly. I have found all the different types of schools and rules a bit complicated. Best just to phone school and ask. Otherwise I use a paid subscription to locrating.com though note offer data for this year is not on there yet.

Assume you talk about Redriff as we are on this huge waiting list. Allocated at Riverside 38 minutes from home with a 2 year old at nursery