Y4 In year admissions for next week, advice/anecdotes please

[mysodapop]

Opinions please:

Waiting for an in-year admission place for next week for Y4. Applied to 2 nearest schools, first choice under the exceptional social/medical criteria (bereavement, kinship care, but no Looked After Child status as family took in). Can only apply under this to one school.

Child has not currently got a place for next week. Is number one on the waiting list for first choice and nearest school under exceptional social need criteria, number three for second choice school. Council are apparently waiting to hear from next nearest school (not very near, not very suitable) as to whether they could offer a place now.

Should I hold my nerve for next week? How likely is it do you think that she will get offered a place at first choice school, in year admissions, at number one on waiting list for a one form entry school?

Or second choice school, 2 form entry, number 3 on list?

What happens is she has no school next week? or I decline a last minute place that they might come up with at third nearest or some other random school? How long can I keep her at home after the term officially starts to wait to see if someone doesn't turn up at first choice school? How likely is this?

I remember my DD feeling like she had done something wrong and no school wanted her. It was heartbreaking.. as adults we knew it was just numbers and nothing personal but she saw her sister just walk into school. And thats without an emotional trauma beforehand.

In Year admissions are hard because someone has to leave to make a place available unless you can convince the school to go over numbers.

If it does get to Appeal I have to say our experience was extremely positive. The Board looked at it like humans not computers.

There's sometimes a bit of movement at the start of term when the school discovers that the Bloggs family have moved over the summer. That may only be discovered when they don't turn up on the first day of term, and there may then be a delay checking that's the case, and that they're not just on holiday. So with any luck there will be a space.
I'd hope that the head realises that if you'll keep her on the waiting list and also appeal, then she's likely to be joining their school later in the term - in which case the disadvantage of having 31 in the class for a while is probably outweighed by the advantage of her starting in September with (or maybe just slightly after) everyone else. That might be even more the case if s/he's heard the rumour about the Bloggs family, or knows that another family are expecting to relocate at Christmas.

Good luck. Fingers crossed.

The council must come up with a place for your daughter somewhere, but it may not be at a school you want. It is unlikely to be too far away - a journey of more than 45 minutes each way is generally considered unreasonable for a primary school child. As others have said, you should accept any place offered as, if you don't, the council is not under any obligation to come up with another offer.

You can appeal for any school where she has been refused entry. As this is Y4, infant class size rules do not apply, so schools can have more than 30 in a class. You can win an appeal by showing that the disadvantage to your daughter from not attending the appeal school outweighs any problems the school will face from having to cope with an additional pupil.

It is unlikely your daughter will have a place for the start of term, but the council should come up with a place for her soon after that. If it gets a week or so into term and they haven't offered anything, or if the place offered is at a school you think is unsuitable, that is the time to think about appealing. If that happens, I will be happy to offer more specific advice on your appeal.

Thank you, I really appreciate that.

Just to be clear, as I know you are very knowleagable on school admissions, are you advising that I wait until after the start of term next Tuesday before contacting either admissions or first choice school where she is number one on waiting list?

Is there any potential value in contacting the school on Monday (inset day) and asking them to consider taking her under FAP number 31, or does this risk annoying people and better to do as part of an official appeal after they have allocated her somewhere else?

There is no harm in chasing, but I suspect the council won't be able to offer a place until after the start of term as there is currently no-one they can contact at schools.

The school cannot choose to take your child under the FAP. That is a decision for a panel set up by the council. However, if the school is an academy or VA school there is no harm asking them if they are willing to admit your child. If it is a community or VC school there is no point - admission decisions for those schools are made by the council.

You should try on Monday @mysodapop.
It is better to try before term starts just in case and to put a face to the names. Yes they are busy but this is a crisis.
What a mess this system has become when children can be expected to travel for 45 minutes that is a long way. My DS had 50/50 custody which got changed on the grounds that the 35 minute drive to school was too long I know ranting is no help and not what you came here for.

I would be inclined to look up the Governing body and send an email stating the circumstances you are in . Or contact your local councillor urgently. Why shouldn't the poor child just go to your nearest school and try to move forward with her little life.

The thing us, the school has to have the capacity to accommodate and support this child - it is in nobody’s interest to give such a vulnerable child a place in the local school but for there to be no physical space and insufficient teaching and support capacity to accommodate them.

I used to teach in a school that faced a huge number of appeals per year. Was it in a child’s best interests to be admitted as the 33rd or 34th child in classrooms big enough for 28 (and PAN of 30) with at least 2-3 children with EHCPs (one in a wheelchair) and at least 10 others on the SEN register in the relevant class? Or was it in fact more sensible for the council to direct the child to an undersubscribed school a little way away, joining a class of 22 with only 6 on the SEN register, none severe? Sympathy but a healthy dose of realism said that the child’s best interests were served by a place in the second school.

No idea if this is helpful but I work in a primary school office and would be the one to receive and respond to in year school place applications. They are sent to me by email from the LA Admissions team.

My post is term time only so there is nobody paid to read and reply over the holidays. I do check my emails during the holidays as I can’t cope with so much to go back to when start of term is so busy anyway. I had an application for a Y4 place come through about ten days ago. We do have space so I said we can offer. We were 2nd choice of 3 and the 1st choice school have not responded yet so the LA won’t have given the parents and answer and we won’t know if the child is offered our place or coming to us until that other school responds.

The email from the LA said each of the 3 schools had to respond within 10 school days so that clock won’t start ticking until next week.

On the off chance you get a friendly sympathetic office manger/office administrator on the end of the phone I’d suggest contacting the school you want on the first TED day (for us we have TED days tomorrow and Tuesday but you can find their term dates online which will tell you when TED days are). Maybe email first and explain about the bereavement and say you will call later in the day. Then call. You have nothing to lose if you are calm, polite and a sound a little desperate to help a grieving child. I’d help you even if we really couldn’t give a place I’d help guide you with next steps best I could as fast as I could to help a child in that situation.

Thank you that is really helpful, and correlates with what admissions have told me today:

"Thank you for your email. I understand that my colleagues in the In-year Admissions Team are processing your niece’s application and unfortunately as the preferred schools are full in year 4, they are looking at offering the nearest alternative school but are waiting for that school to return from their holidays before we make the formal offer.

With regards to your request for exceptional circumstances, which if granted would place your niece into a higher criterion for waiting list purposes, I will leave it for my colleague to come back to you on that. I am unsure if that request has been considered.

In the meantime, as we cannot offer you a place at the preferred schools you have the right of appeal and details are contained in the link below:"

As she is already number one on the WL, apparently, I have asked them to confirm whether or not exceptional circumstances has been granted, or not, as presumably this will influence my appeal - which they seem to be saying I can initiate now, and I plan to do that once they have confirmed.

Both schools I applied to are Community Schools. Any tips for the appeal gratefully received.Should I appeal for both schools, or just the first choice nearest one where I applied anuder exception social criteria where she is number 1 on the WL (other school is bigger and she is number 3 there).

Also what wording shall I use to delay start date for the school they eventually offer while I am awaiting outcome of appeal?

Have done appeals this morning and the admissions team here is up and running. Paper work was sent out last week along with emails and time table changes from admissions.
The school staff have inset days but they are all in. Give them a call

Call the school? is there any point if admissions are handled centrally?

This is the reply from admissions to my query about the criteria:

"Thank you for your email, X is currently in a meeting, but I hope she will reply to you later.

In terms of the appeals process and your request under the exceptional circumstance’s criterion, it makes no difference whether your application has already been considered or is in the process of being considered for exceptional circumstances. Ultimately, your preferred schools are currently full and unable to accommodate an additional pupil and as such you have the right to appeal that decision."

No answer from the school anyway. I'm emailing the head under the suggested 'head@school' just to put it on their radar tha I intend to appeal although I think it will all be handled by the LA Admissions and their appeals panel anyway, I am completing the online form for that today.

Are there any other schools that you would consider acceptable? If not, and you really want to hold out for the two you’ve been declined, then I’d stop chasing the council for a space as then you’ll need to accept something you don’t want. It you can delay that it gives more time to appeal. Get that in asap, take advice on it from people who know what they are doing.

Yes I think that is a good plan. There are only 3 primary schools in the town that we live in, I think they are trying to get her into the third one which I, anecdotally, know is also full for Year 4. Not sure how much further out they will go. All others would involve a drive - while we simultaneously need to be dropping the older children at the train station for secondary school right next to the second choice school (other, number one choice, is on our road). But yes, I've accepted that she won't start school this week so am looking at the online appeal forms now.

Hi thinking about you @mysodapop . Have you managed to speak to anyone?
I would love to hear your niece is starting somewhere tomorrow?
What are you going to do with her if not.

Thank you for thinking of us x No news as yet. No school place offered yet. Couldn't get hold of anyone at school 1 on phone so sent an email to ask if they are aware of any upcoming movement, no reply as yet, autonated reply says expect a reply within 48 hours. In email dialogue with council admissions who are being responsive. They are targeting school 3 who apparently may have space in year 4, tbc.

I did discover that there had been a technical process error at their end when they downloaded my application at the beginning of July after I submitted on the 1st July when the in-year admiasions portal opened. It was passed to the person who evaluates exceptional socail/medical need consideration via the Supplementary Informarion Form and supporting evidence I attached to the application, but somehow this got stripped off the application when they downloaded it or they didnt see it for some reason and so they apparently somehow saw it as a standard in year admission applciation for school 1 (and 2). I have corrected that and luckily had taken a copy of the SIF that explains everything, amd have email confirmation from admissions that I had submitted a SIF and was applying for exceptional criteria, so re-sent them that with all the supporting evidence (CAFCASS report, social worker letter, C.A.O etc) and they have now reprocessed her application under exceptional social need rather than distance. So she is now number 1 on the waiting list for school 1 under exceptional social need rather than number 1 on the waiting list via distance. Not sure if that makes any practical difference. They have also reclassified school 1 as our nearest school because it is much nearer via walking distance (it is our nearest school, on same road) wheras before they were apparently saying school 3 was our nearest school as it is fractionally nearer on straight-line distance.

Plan is to accept first offer they make, appeal for school 1.

sorry, any offer they make, I know they will only make 1.

What a tough situation for an 8-year old.

If they made a mistake in processing the form, could that potentially help your appeal - if other places had been offered from the waiting list in the meantime after you applied that would have been hers if she'd been in the top category rather than the distance category? You'd probably have to ask specifically if that had happened (or the school might be able to tell you if there had been any other new joiners this year).

Can you appeal, regardless, for the school you want, as don't the admission catgories only affect the waiting list position, and have nothing to do with the appeal? So it wouldn't really matter at this point whether she's been considered in the exceptional social need category or not, in terms of proving her need for that school etc. Whether she was in the exceptional social need category might be useful for proving that a mistake had been made, which could be part of the appeal, but for the other part of the appeal, the bit about why her need for that school is greater than the problems than an extra pupil would cause, shouldn't be affected one way or the other by which category she is currently in. I'm sure the appeal experts on here will give more experienced advice.

Does the school you want have anything like specific bereavement support? Or is it a school where her cousins went, the teachers/school know your family and therefore she might feel more 'at home' there, or where nearby children might be going so that she can start to build a new life, that kind of thing? You could use those arguments to show the advantages to her of being at that school in particular.

I am sorry to read that you haven't been able to get anywhere especially as every day supposedly matters so much. I hope there's a bit of a push now the forms are right.
In case this is going to drag on any longer if you feel dn needs to start y4 work Twinkl does a 30 day free trial and there are loads of curriculum stuff you can print off to do until she gets a place. And a Twinkl YouTube channel/Facebook page. I home ed that's the only reason I'm saying this. I like the CPG workbooks which you can get for each year group they are quite reasonable.and the other thing is just reading as much as possible. I know you are very busy with work and all the children I don't mean to sound patronising just thinking of what would be the least cost layout for you.
I'm just really hoping things fall into place pretty soon. It's very sad to see others starting the new school year it's like she's being left behind.x

Sorry you are still in limbo. Oak national academy is a free source of video lessons that follow the curriculum. I would try to keep up with maths and english whilst you wait.

Basically at the moment your niece is on waiting lists which means that there is no space at the preferred schools. The local authority will continue to look at schools that have space within a reasonable distance. You should find that the application is sorted out within a few days as the schools return and local authority teams return as some are also term time only.

Just to highlight, you're not able to refer to Fair Access yourself, the local authority won't refer to Fair Access if there is likely to be space at a school within reasonable distance (I'm a fair access officer)

The appeal is handled separately if you choose to appeal for any of your preferences. You'll need a letter from admissions confirming the place has been refused and how to appeal.

It's important if they make an offer to accept it whilst also putting in an appeal as the appeal can take time to be listed and may not be successful.

If they made a mistake in processing the form, could that potentially help your appeal - if other places had been offered from the waiting list in the meantime after you applied that would have been hers if she'd been in the top category rather than the distance category?

The date and oversubscription criterion of the last offer made in a year group is certainly something that should be explored by an appeal panel (if the OP goes to appeal - and tbh, I would suggest lodging appeals now for any school which has turned down an application; they can always withdraw if a suitable place is offered). If it turns out that a place had been / become available and it would have been offered, had the application been ranked correctly, then that would normally be a fairly straightforward 'win'.

Ideally, though, if there was an acknowledged procedural error which directly cost the child a place, then the applicant should not need to go to appeal.

Given what a meal the government make about attendance - particularly at the start of the year - it’s a disgrace that children are waiting weeks or months for a school place. It really shouldn’t be this hard to establish which schools have places available.