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Primary education

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O M G there are books other than O R flipping T . If your school is giving easy books then go to the blardy library and get your kid a book they find hard. oR whatever. But schools are not librarys/book shops. There is limited money for books. esp wh...

92 replies

charmkin · 23/05/2008 20:53

So stop whining and realise that ORT is not GOD of reading.

OP posts:
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bozza · 25/05/2008 20:59

Oh and to think that I have all this to go through again. One child who I cannot stop reading (even when he is walking downstairs, putting his shoes on etc) and another to plough through all those early reading books. She is 4 and does not remotely get initial sounds yet so a way to go with her.

Enid · 25/05/2008 21:00

yes I'll have them all again in 2 years [yawn]

silly to blame ANY books for bored kids IMO.

misdee · 25/05/2008 21:02

i'm probably classed as pushy as dd2 get extra books over weekends and holidays. but she is enjoying the reading scheme so i'm really trying not to care. i just go by the comments in her reading record from her teachers and the certificates she gets for her reading and writing.

Enid · 25/05/2008 21:03

yes I am pushy too

dd2 had the whole of ort 4 (the extra ones - sparrows) over easter

great, it means we are whipping through it and one step nearer using the school library instead

Oliveoil · 25/05/2008 21:05

dd1 loves ORT so far and has just gone up to level 3 [proud]

anyway, Marks & Spencer do a great range called First Readers, they are £2.50, currently on an offer of 3 for 2

fairy stories, one side is basic story, other page repeats a sentence you have already read

go down a treat in this house

(although MN has a thing about 'passive' princesses/fairy stories for some reason so maybe you would have to look out for a PC version or summat )

Enid · 25/05/2008 21:06

they sound good oo

Oliveoil · 25/05/2008 21:08

current obsession is Rapunzel, dd1 has taken it to bed every night this week and can now read WITCH (not sure if this is a good thing

good illustrations too (AND I can go via the Lard Arse Cake Aisle whilst I am improving her mind)

Oliveoil · 25/05/2008 21:10

they are very basic however so you may want to peruse them first as if your child is a good reader they may find them too easy, mine finds it hard so I use them to boost her (lack of) confidence

Enid · 25/05/2008 21:11

lol

our m and s is being refurbished (ie looks like a bomb has exploded in per una) so is a nightmare to get around

dd2 is having a week off reading and has decided she would rather look at the Usborne Book of 4,000,000 Things To Spot with me every night . Tonight was An Italian Art Studio 500 years ago x 2.

Miggsie · 25/05/2008 21:35

DD says the artwork is rubbish on ORT.
A true critic.

mrz · 26/05/2008 11:06

"By Enid on Sun 25-May-08 20:49:25
but there is no intrinsic difference between a reading scheme book and any other book"

sorry but do you honestly believe that?

Research has shown that children who are taught to read and then apply those skills in reading "real" books make better progress because they are apply their skills in a wide range of contexts - whereas reading schemes had an extremely narrow focus. If children have a wide range of books at home, they learn that there is a wider context to reading. If children lack exposure to reading real books they are less likely to be able to generalise from what they have learnt from a school reading scheme.

In other words, well-supported children might read well in spite of the reading scheme not because of it.

mrz · 26/05/2008 11:16

You may want to look at the research by Warwick University
"The use of real books is recommended for three reasons.

The first is that children's long-term success in reading depends on the way they adapt to texts, which in turn, depends on the material they read. Children need to encounter a wide and diverse range of books which reflect the literary structures they will experience as their reading progresses. This will help to ensure that they can apply their skills to books varying in style and difficulty. -Where- -vocabulary- -is- -heavily- -controlled- -within- a -reading- -scheme-, -children- may appear to progress but may ultimately have difficulties in transferring their skills to books which are not part of the scheme.

The second reason is that children are more likely to learn the distinctive and critical features of individual words when they are encountered in many different contexts. For example, if children only see the word 'and' written in one font, size, colour etc., they may not appreciate its defining features as readily as seeing the same sequence of letters in numerous fonts, sizes and colours in a variety of books.

The third reason is that the use of reading schemes can only be justified if their structure is different from and easier than that of non-reading scheme hooks. We have explored this within the ERR through looking at four types of texts; a random selection of children's literature (e.g. The Tiger that Came to Tea, Not Now Bernard) and adult literature (fiction and non-fiction) was compared to two reading schemes, Oxford Reading Tree and Rhyme World. The first thing we looked at was the frequency of the 100 most commonly occurring words in written English. Their representation across the four sets of materials was remarkably similar and accounted for approximately 50% of all the words in all four text types. Furthermore the first 16 most commonly occurring words accounted for approximately 25% of all the words. So these high frequency words occurred as often in real books as they did in the carefully structured reading schemes. As a result, the key question is whether there is any value in teaching any additional sight vocabulary, as well as the 100 most frequent words? Our research shows that the return on teaching the 100 common words from the National Literacy Strategy list is high, around 50% of all words in adult and children's texts, but the return on teaching any additional common words, as recommended by the NIS at key stage 1, is very low, less than 1% (after excluding phonically regular words).

Which is why I would suggest to the parents of the children that I teach to leave the reading schemes to school/home reading time and if they want to buy books for their child to buy one of the many high quality picture books widely available.

charmkin · 26/05/2008 12:36

yes mrz you are totally right and more eloquent ( less pinot i imagine)

I don't say this very often but I know I am right about this and think that schools are brainwashing parents into thinking that ort in particular are somehow better than other books and it is to the detriment of their general life long relationship with books.

OP posts:
GeorgeAndTimmy · 26/05/2008 13:46

I am not saying that real books should not be given to children, I'm suggesting that in the early, confidence-building stages of reading, them scheme books are great. They give the children books to tackle that do not overwhelm them.

I have not suggested that parents buy scheme books either, but said that it is perectly reasonable for them to ask teachers for extra scheme books if a child enjoys them.

I agree that the best way to get children reading is to expose them to all sorts of books, to have them around all the time and for the cildren to see adults reading for pleasure. However when children are just starting out, 'real' books can be daunting, and parents are often not the best judge of what their child is capable of. There is a fine line between stretching your child at home and putting them off because the books are too tricky for them.

My DS2 was reading last night. He is 5 (Yr R)and usually manages to read half of an ORT 5 book at a time. However, he is really enjoying them and wanted to read the whole book, plus the next one. That shows me that for him (and his big brother who is reading Harry Potter 5 aged just 7), the reading scheme is working to build his confidence and enjoyment. At the moment, he wants me to read when we do other books, but I expect that he will soon branch out on his own as his big brother did, once he feels capable enough. The scheme books make him feel like a reader and that to me is fab.

I am not accusing anyone, but threads on this topic have somtimes smacked of real snobbery and we know best when it comes to teachers view vs parents and oh-so-laughable reading schemes.

mrz · 26/05/2008 14:06

GeorgeAndTimmy you didn't suggest buying ORT books but a number of other posters did I quite agree with asking schools for additional books especially over holiday periods but to those who want to buy books please look at alternatives to ORT (or any other scheme)

mrz · 27/05/2008 20:29

If parents are looking to buy easy books to read Usbourne have brought out a set of phonic story books Big Pig on a Dig, Fat Cat on a Mat,
Fox on a Box, Frog on a Log, Goose on the Loose
Hen?s Pens, Mouse Moves House, Sam Sheep Can?t Sleep, Shark in the Park, Ted in a Red Bed, Ted?s Shed and Toad Makes a Road

aintnomountainhighenough · 27/05/2008 22:05

mrz thank you so much for your posts, as usual they are very useful . As this thread seems to have kept going I wanted to retract what I posted on it earlier. I didn't read the OP properly and would like to say that I think most parents know that there are other books than ORT but clearly most schools don't. You are correct schools are not libraries or shops however they are supposed to be educating our children which includes teaching them to read. There is no doubt that if schools are using the old ORT books (not the new Phonics with Floppy or Songbirds) they are using books that are very out of date and that are not supporting what they are supposed to be teaching in the classroom. The schools are responsible for educating and guiding parents. If they don't want to spend their money on books, and yes by the way I don't believe that there isn't enough money to buy new schemes, then I suggest they send more information home to parents on where they can get the books and what they recommend they read. I would guess that most Mumsnetters don't need to be told to use the library and many can afford to buy books but the children we need to help are the ones who's parents don't have the education, knowledge, motivation etc to help their children. The education system is mainly responsible for teaching our children I would like them to realise that there is more to ORT frankly.

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