Bute House or Latymer prep 7+

[Simplymom]

Hi all
DD got 7+ offers from Bute House and Latymer prep and we can’t decide which one to go for. When we visited the schools, we fell in love with Bute (the vibe, the confident and happy girls, the relaxed environment) and thought we would try Latymer just for a back up option. However as she now got both offers, I am starting to think whether Latymer would be a better option given it’s an all through school and could avoid 11+ stress. But then looking at Bute 11+ results surely it shouldn’t be that difficult to get into a good secondary without extra tutoring. I am adamant of extra tutoring on top of private school fees.
for additional info - my DD is at state school now, we only started gentle prep for 7+ in Sep and had tutor who came 6-7 times in total (mainly to teach creative writing as they don’t teach them that way in her current school); we did math prep ourselves. So overall it was a pretty easy prep for 7+. So I am wondering am I being naive about 11+ using my 7+ experience judgement and should avoid it by all means and take Latymer prep offer?

sorry for a long post! Any view of these schools would be much appreciated. We need to make our decision by the end of this weekend!

hopsalong took pains in their initial post to specify that their conclusions are drawn from a small sample. Regardless, they are their conclusions. They are as entitled to draw conclusions and express opinions as anyone else, arguably more so than most if they actually have experience in the field.

Now you tell us: how large is your sample size and where did you get your evidence that you feel entitled to rubbish their conclusions about writing? Why should we attach any weight to your opinion?

I certainly didn't read enough in hopsalong's posts to see that they were poor observers and/or reasoners. And they were so intent on misleading that they went out of their way to note that their observations and conclusions were based on a small sample. And they were so irresponsible as to share their caveated opinions in a forum with participants who clearly cannot be trusted to think for themselves.

But your DS is obviously omniscient and confident enough to call someone a liar on the basis that their conclusions don't match his preconceptions. He sounds like he'll fit right in at Oxbridge.

This is the internet. hopsalong may be a disgruntled 12 year old girl for all I know. But none of their critics has posted anything information, either, only innuendo and accusations.

My argument is based on numbers

2023, 141 girls went to Uni from SPGS

SPGS sent 40 to Oxford , this is 28%

Of that , Oxford has about 48 courses at first degree level, so my statement holds true : '

Based on the anecdotal evidence of the handful of girls you teach from the minority of 6th form girls who head to Oxford each year from the school, you draw a conclusion about teaching quality at the school, which is in my opinion - Bollocks.

@user149799568 if our Oxford don has a degree, a Masters degree and PhD they'd know to offer such opinions are meaningless, complete drivel......it has zero epistemological value. If they were a master at SPGS and making this comment it would have some value, they are not, they teach at Oxford ( or so they say) so one would expect them to know better.

I await the Oxford Don's answer to my question on their opinion of other Oxford feeders such as Westminster or Eton or St Pauls boys, which have much higher applicants to Oxford. They have offered their opinion on Camden School for Girls and Latymer , but no others.

@Pointerdogsrule

they'd know to offer such opinions are meaningless, complete drivel......it has zero epistemological value.

hopsalong has specifically addressed writing in their comments. They make no claim to understand mathematics. And mumsnet would be a much more concise place if only statistically significant results could be posted.

The most credible criticism that can be made of their comments is that their experience may be the result of small sample error, which you have since made explicitly, albeit crudely ("bollocks"). However they specifically mentioned this issue in their first post.

Is your request for their opinion of students from other schools an honest request for information, or simply a challenge to their credibility ("they teach at Oxford ( or so they say)")?

Does any of this even matter? OP has already said they've decided on Bute House.

I find it hard to believe because there are more than thirty colleges at Oxford. Tutorials are college-based.

1. Some colleges are larger than others. The largest will get more than 1/30 of the students.
2. Secondary schools develop "relationships" with specific colleges because of past experience and/or courses offered. LU students will not be applying to all Oxford colleges with equal probability.
3. Colleges share tutors. It's not uncommon for students at one college to have tutorials at another in specific subjects.

How do these facts affect your assessment of the probabilities? Do you even care about the math?

The poster didn't mention he/she is a college tutor, so it can possible be faculty lecturer, group class or indeed a cross college tutorial.

Well, there are a lot of assumptions here, some of which don't really chime with the opinion expressed and some of which may be wrong, and no I don't really care about the maths - it was just interesting to see that the numbers the opinion is based on are so tiny and spread over such a long period of time (during which all the schools mentioned will have changed in various ways). It's a strange opinion anyway, and very specific in its conclusions. It seems very odd on a number of levels. Why do so many girls get in from SPGS if the candidates are not up to scratch? Why is it that Latymer and Camden in particular were singled out as doing a better job when other metrics don't seem quite so positive? Why has the poster singled out this particular school for her comments when it's pretty irrelevant to the original question, given that a fairly significant number of Bute girls don't in fact go on to SPGS and it's a totally separate school with its own governance etc and OP isn't even sure where would suit her child later on? I don't know, I just think something feels a bit off about this.

Thanks anyway for your thoughts.

"Why is it that Latymer and Camden in particular were singled out as doing a better job when other metrics don't seem quite so positive?"

This feels a bit off, the poster was comparing the students she/he experienced in Oxford originated from different schools. I assume those students somehow have met certain minimum standard the college requires to get in?

How does their previous school metrics, positive or not, relavant to this comparison?

Is there a presumption that a student in Oxford from a school had historical higher pupil get in does better than a student in Oxford come from a school with less pupil get in?

That wasn't really what I meant. There are students in all sorts of universities and from all sorts of schools with just as good grades at A Level. Supposing any of this is true, it sounds like the selection process doesn't work very well. Which seems surprising to me.

I share the same view in the earlier post. If the selection process doesn't work well, which could be the case, the teacher should raise to the admission tutor to improve it.

I start with the assumption that, in any contest, some players are better and more active at "gaming the system" than others. "Middle class" parents in grammar applications. "Feeder schools" for independent secondaries. Secondary schools which have developed deeper knowledge of what appeals to different universities.

If this assumption is correct, then the selection process will be biased in favor of the more informed and aggressive players who have learned how to successfully send false signals. Unfortunately, it can be very difficult to screen these out. If you believe that selective secondaries admit an unfortunate number of "over-tutored" kids, why would you not believe that selective universities do as well?

This point has nothing to do with SPGS vs LU, though it quite possibly could be relevant to independent vs state comprehensive.

This thread has gone way off topic.

Its true though that state school students outperform independent students with the same A-Level grades at university which would suggest @user149799568 is correct

To expand @user149799568 I think the university selection bias can possibly exist between any different type of characteristics of the schools, not just simple as state vs private e.g. Nonselective state vs grammar, grammar vs private or even private school vs private schools.

The Oxbridge focus on adjusting / improving the bias for student in under performing non-selective state vs selective private/grammar (contextual). It can certainly improve further.

This thread is hilarious

From OP choosing between 2 Prep school offers, which are about 5-10 minutes drive from each other, fairly normal problem for a 7 + entry.

To talking about Oxford University selection and contextual offers !

Only on MN.....

I'm not surprised at all. As far as I'm aware one of the subject title school is known to be very popular among some parents who have a clear projection of their DC trajectory from the age 4 -

Bute - SPGS - Oxbridge. So I guess this is how this conversation develops.

@PreplexJ exactly.

The OP wants to send her child long term to one of the Hammersmith schools and likes co-Ed.

The only reason to turn Latymer down for Bute is because you really want SPGS. It’s the entire subtext of the decision to ‘keep options open’

Odd post. SPGS sends about 50% of their girls to Oxbridge. About 80% get invited for interview. Yet you draw this conclusion about one of the most academically vigorous (and independently minded) schools on the basis of a dozen over 15 years? Think I’ll stick with SPGS. But do let the school know your concerns.

Indeed. Very odd post aimed at discrediting an amazing school. Stats don’t add up at all. SPGS seem able to select the type of girls that will do well in an academically independent environment. Many who go on to Oxbridge find the tuition their substandard compared to their school. But are well prepared for a more independent tutor system. Just find the right school for your child. And sadly you will get pushy parents in every school. My daughter was not tutored but got offers from both her schools. Think her untutored approach was an advantage!