Secular school and church services

[HowIsThisOk]

Myself and my husband have no faith (although raised in Catholic Irish [me] and Methodist [him] cultures) , and have sent our child to the local secular primary school. When the teacher came to do the home visit in September, she asked if we were OK with our daughter taking part in religious events like the nativity. Knowing the nativity is one of those core school events, we said yes but didnt ask what other services take place. However, since then, they have taken the kids to the local COE church for the Harvest festival, a EYFS concert, and now have a Carol service, a tree decorating event, a Christmas service rehearsal and the Christmas service itself all scheduled in the church, let by the vicar. This is in the space between end of September and when they break up in December. At these services the vicar speaks about God, tells them about blessings and promotes the church to both children and parents (mainly for parents to donate. They take card). I have pulled my kid out of going to the church and she now stays in school with a few other kids and colours, but I am really shocked that this amount of religious involvement is happening in a school that, from what I understood, shouldn't teach one specific religions beliefs as fact. I thought all children were supposed to be included in school community events during school time, and I am concerned that my daughter will feel left out and different because she isn't a part of this faith. But if I send her to the services, I am going against our own beliefs and doing something I am really uncomfortable with, just so she "fits in".

Is this normal in schools in the UK? Am I wrong when i thought secular schools don't partake in Church of England religious ceremonies every few weeks?

It isn't typical, no. However, all schools should have regular assemblies that are "broadly Christian in character." Schools are left open to interpret that phrase.

Your options are:
-allow her to attend church service within school
-don't allow her to
-change school

That seems like a lot especially in Reception (assuming because of the mention of EYFS). My DS is in reception at a Catholic school and they have the nativity play plus a Christmas mass at the school for them. Other than that, it is things like a Christmas trip to the zoo (?) and Christmas jumper day.

Where would they hold the concert if not in the church? Does the school actually have a hall big enough to fit in all the parents?

Harvest festival is a pretty normal thing to be marked by schools, as are having carol services and a special Christmas service.

What happens at the tree decorating?

Is there enough space in your school hall to get in all the parents that want to attend the events? Church halls are often a convenient arrangement for growing schools. School numbers grow but theres not always extra space in the communal areas.

The tree decorating and EYFS concert are not religious. Harvest festival and Carol concert are more culturally Christian events. These are nice school events to attend for the kids. Singing songs and collecting food for the community.
The Christmas service and practice for it are the only broadly religious events. I appreciate you don't like the vicar saying a prayer and talking about God. I doubt its going to indoctrinate your DC.

It seems unnecessarily petty keeping your dc away from these events. By making a big deal of it you may be making religion more attractive.

There is no such thing as a state secular school in England. As the first reply pointed out. I disagree with it but it is currently the law. Some schools are more light touch than others.

Every few weeks at church is not normal, but I was surprised by the extent to which religion was brought into the classroom on a pretty regular basis. Our situation is more complicated in that all schools in our area are CofE, but even secular schools are required to teach religion.

i am not British- I grew up in a VERY religious part of the world, found a great deal about it toxic, and consciously have stepped away from religion in my personal life. I raise my children with an agnostic mindset, but ironically they get more religion in school than they would have in my home country. It bothers me in that I think schools have a special position of trust and credibility with children, and I feel like using that position to promote religion is a misuse of that position of authority.

I try to take a long perspective and focus on raising my children to be thoughtful, questioning adults. I don’t negate what is taught in school, but I am clear with them that I (and many others) have different beliefs, and encourage my children to analyse their own beliefs. They are far less credulous now, but I vividly remember a heated debate between the two of them over whether god was real, which ended in them agreeing that there maybe was once a god, but god was certainly dead now.

Seems similar to the involvement my kids primary school had, that wasn't a church school but was a village school. The church could fit the kids and the parents in unlike the tiny school hall

What’s not to like about carols and Christmas? Do Dc like being separated out? My Dc never took anything religious seriously (as in believing it all) but would always partipate. Harvest was more about thanks for what we had and giving to the foodbank! As many do anyway. Christmas was fun and traditional. Enjoyable for everyone. Many non religious affiliated (community) schools do a play and don’t have religious input at Christmas though. A bit sad for your Dc to be left behind just because of the vicar turning up. I guess parental indoctrination wins in your house!!

I don't think there are secular state primaries in the UK just the option to opt out of services on religious grounds.

Thank you for your replies. I have personally had incredibly negative experiences with religion in Catholic Ireland, and religion genuinely terrifies me, hence my reluctance for my child to go to religious services etc. At the minute my DD doesn't mind not going to the church, but I feel that will change as she gets older. I have raised my concerns about the number of times the kids are being brought to the church with the teacher especially as the school has a hall big enough to hold the parents for events where its just once school year involved but I am not naive enough to think things will change. I guess I will have to suck it up eventually, as there are no other schools that are an option for us. Not going to lie, I don't see the need for role of religion in schools other than in am informational sense in religion lessons where all faiths are explained, but I guess we aren't at that point in 2023.

A school is as religious as the current HT. There are no guarantees when you look round a non-faith school about the level of worshipping, it's a lottery

It sounds more cultural and following the festivities of normal life in the UK.
Even the law is based on The Ten Commandments.
I see offering interaction in local events as making sure my child were not ignorant. How can she know anything about religion if she is not exposed to some faith activity?

And it gives you a chance to discuss all those topics with her if she sometimes is exposed to every day church behaviour.
I worry that, due to over protective parents, some children search for meaning and faith but do not recognise what a cult or sect may be. Are children devoid of any religious exposure or education more vulnerable to being exploited? Or being indoctrinated into radical Muslim terrorist groups for example - all in the name of being ignorant.

I like my children to feel comfortable to go to a wedding, funeral, say grace etc. They are normal cultural experiences.
It is your choice, of course.

That sounds about right. DD’s have been to a village school which was C of E then they moved to a catholic school and now Dd1 is in a catholic senior. This is all despite me being vehemently against religious indoctrination of children. Unfortunately religious schools tend to be very good schools around here so it’s impossible to escape it.

As a parent, you have the greatest influence, not the school! Your views on how you bring up Dc is what will really form their views. Any parent who is scared of a Christmas or harvest service is taking dislike to extremes if they counter these views every day at home. It’s hardly open minded to stop Dc doing something with classmates that they might enjoy because of your views from another country! These services are just the community coming together. The vicar is hardly the devil. They will be very light touch snd I don’t get the fear. Often it’s best to not even discuss the religious bit. We didn’t. How many religious fanatics come out of a school Christmas service I wonder?

I can understand your reaction when you have very negative associations to Christianity. However, harvest festivals and Christmas concerts won’t turn your daughter into a raving zealot.
I grew up in a time when we had a mildly religious school assembly every day and grace before lunch, plus a bit of learning about bible stories in the classroom and I never thought of it as anything but stories. I no more believed that James and the Giant Peach was true than Jesus rising from the dead.
Your (non) beliefs and attitudes will have more impact on your daughter than a few sermons. Look on these trips as being part of British cultural traditions rather than religious indoctrination.

@MagpiePi CofE schools are similar now. Learning about other religions is mandatory though. That’s a good thing. I remember the RC children being pulled out of our morning service at school. It always felt divisive and unnecessary. Singing a hymn or two and thought of the day didn’t feel like CofE indoctrination. Interesting that the RC congregation where I grew up now use the CofE church!

My kids don't go to a church school, but they do visit the church and the vicars have been in to school a couple of times. This year the year 1/2 nativity is in the church so the school hall can be used by another year group. When the heating broke, the church let the school use their buildings for lessons- it's a positive community relationship.
We are not religious as a family, but they have definitely come home asking questions after these sessions. My daughter said she believed in god the other week, but I just kept it light and said ok, that's fine- some people do and some people don't, me and your Dad don't. Our local church has a nice ethos, and the vicars (a married couple) live opposite us, so I'm not against it- I just don't believe in god!

In comparison I teach in a church (secondary) school, and Christian prayer is a feature of every day, a MUCH bigger deal.

I work in a secondary school too and religion doesn't play a single part of any day, ever. I think I had the idea that it would be the same in primary (bar the nativity). I guess I was wrong.

@TizerorFizz I just don’t see a role for religion in state education, and vigorously object to my children being taught religion as truth. I support exposure to different belief systems, but that is quite different from what my children were receiving- religious belief was being presented as fact, in the same way they would teach history or science. As someone who has a traumatic relationship with church, it was quite distressing. I also hate that I am put in a position where I have to undermine my children’s teachers. Ultimately I know that my parental values will prevail, but I hate having to run counter programming. It also drives me nuts that they spend an hour or more each week on religious drivel that would be better spent on other subjects - they get more religion than science!

Many multicultural countries manage to have school community and mark seasonal festivities in an inclusive way that accommodates a variety of belief systems. It really only requires minor tweaks to tradition, and is far more respectful of the broader community given many of us don’t have loads of choice around where our children are educated.

This!! I could have written this. This is exactly my problem and feelings

Many schools do celebrate other cultures. It’s not just CofE in lots of schools. You probably need to visit more schools!

Plus many schools here were established by the church. CofE schools will take it more seriously and often secondaries cannot be bothered. Primaries like a bit of tradition but it’s barely religious.

We don’t have faith but made no fuss about that with Dc. They just liked a good sing at school for Christmas. I’m ambivalent towards the whole thing. If you keep your thoughts to yourself, your Dc won’t care that much either way. Why make them conflicted? I just don’t care about religion or see it an important. I liked Dc joining in without endless debate and angst. You won’t change it, so live with it. Let Dc ask questions and explain what the law says and what some people believe. The school will do that for other religions too. I cannot get worked up about it. They can have a daily act of worship if the school wishes in line with the law. You can find another school if you find it distasteful.

You are posting quite a bit on a top can’t get worked up about!

You also seem to be missing the point about the difference between discussing different belief systems conceptually vs. teaching one religion (any religion) as truth. I am sure some schools do the former, but far too many do the latter, even when not religiously affiliated. It isn’t something one can readily opt out of either since so much of it is discretionary by the school head or individual teacher. The 5 nearest state primaries to us are ALL CofE, no non-denominational option with a realistic chance of getting a place.

I know I am not going to change school policy, but I can still be irritated by it. And for my kids, it WAS a big deal- they talked about religion lessons nonstop, and were very upset by the idea that I didn’t believe what their teachers were teaching. In time they have found greater acceptance, but at y2 I think it is still somewhat confusing for them. Just seems utterly unnecessary, and honestly not very respectful to families.

They do not teach it as the “truth” in community schools. Not at all. Religions are explained and there might be a visit to see where others worship. Look at the RE agreed syllabus to see what’s included in your area. This is drawn up by religious leaders of several faiths. It’s collaborative.

Any school can have a daily act of worship. That will be broadly religious. This is far more likely to be the case in Religious schools. For community schools it’s often more about being kind, helping someone, etc. My Dc did no religious assemblies at their infant school at all. At a CofE school you would expect them to be religious.

Why do you think the “truth” is taught for religion? Why is that a more important and over-bearing “truth” than yours that doesn’t recognise religion? It’s just opinions, surely? I didn’t find it was put across as truth at all. Mostly it’s concepts and stories. Some people believe it but clearly most don’t.

The reason I said I didn’t get worked up about it is because my views won’t be important at any level in this national or local debate. The religions fiercely hold on to what they have. Our local junior school now has a religious head. My DC would not have gone there had it been like that previously. I don’t like religious schools at all but our local junior was a fairly benign CofE back then. Now it’s not. I do not think if greatly affects Dc if it’s a good school with a bit of religion. I’m far more concerned about quality of teaching and learning then whether they sing carols at Christmas. So that was always my focus.

DD does now sing in a chapel choir but she’s there for the singing! (And the networking afterwards) Not the religion.

I am very worried about my child's potential indoctrination. We as parents are trying our best to raise kids that think for themselves. Critical thinking is key for everything in life.

Perhaps secular schools should be properly secular and we parents can have a day in this. Ultimately it is our children they teach to.

Anyone is aware of the process to take a group request forward?