Badly behaved at nursery, transition into primary school

[4YOWoe]

Really worried about my 4yo transitioning into primary school and afterschool club in September and would value other people's experiences or thoughts.

He is fine at home, out and about, and at playgroup or in the park. He sometimes doesn't listen or argues, or might shout at someone if they snatch or push, but is generally a pretty good kid. I use a lot of the How to talk . . . . strategies and natural consequences. He's way ahead academically and ready in that sense for school.

However at nursery is a different story, he kicks, pushes and hits, there is never a day with a good report. Nursery's view is that some kids are just feral and there is not much they can do. We are taking him out of nursery over the summer as luckily we can manage this around work - for the v short term.

Has anyone else had this bad behaviour at nursery, good at home? I hear loads of stories the other way round. Because I never see the bad behaviour, I just don't know how to deal with it, and I am so worried that it will continue into school. We had a meeting with his Reception teacher today who was saying if behaviour is an issue he may not be able to access after school club, which is stressful as we really need this (albeit two days a week).

What can we do at home about this?

Hi. I’ve come across this lots over the years.
I know you must be concerned but it is good that you are looking for solutions and support.
Sometimes parents find it so hard to believe.

It sounds sad that there is “ never a day with a good report” you must dread the feedback. I have never come across a parent being told their child is feral.

If they don’t know how to manage his behaviour in the setting they should have sought support and asked for strategies from agencies. I’d be asking what he is doing well with ( sounds like he is quite able)
Can he be given some jobs to do to distract or engage him? Are they using any visuals or rewards with him?

One way to look at it is that at home there will be fewer demands placed upon your son. You are almost certainly doing things he enjoys and he can have his own space and play without having to wait for a turn, nobody knocking his building down etc.
Nursery can be busy overwhelming and sometimes not structured enough for some children.

Reception can be a fresh start and you may find that with a different positive approach and clear rules and boundaries he may be fine. Academically there will be more challenges which might suit him.

At home sounds like more of the same. Maybe sneak some behaviour stories in, safe hands and feet type, but I wouldn’t be too overt.
I’m sure if you sat him down he could tell you the rules OK and not OK behaviours.
Twinkl will have some free behaviour resources. Many schools subscribe.
Good luck!

Your nursery is letting you down massively with the attitude that "some kids are just feral". It's not even true in your case as his behaviour is not the same in other situations.

Have nursery been able to say what triggers his behaviour, why is he hitting, kicking, pushing? What consequences have they implemented? Why haven't they implemented things to keep the other children safe?

Yes we do feel let down by nursery and I dread pickup. Last week one of the other kids was busy telling his mum how DS pushed him that day.

The triggers seem to be boredom, having to wait for other kids to be ready (e.g. when starting an activity, moving outside) and mainly other kids hitting/kicking him - much of this is retaliation. They have a behaviour plan for him but don't follow it e.g. he is reading fluently and frustrated with learning the alphabet etc at nursery so they have provided him with a "stretch basket" (independent reading, letter games) which he can access during those activities - but only if he remembers to ask. They also let him do jobs and give him a 1-1 if he's being difficult- which in his eyes is a reward because he loves adult engagement.

I definitely think the structure of school will help but v anxious about the less structured afterschool club.

will look at Twinkl, thank you.

No, no rewards at nursery. School use a red card/gold card system and I had wondered about using similar at home - but we don't see the bad behaviour so I would rarely have the opportunity to reinforce it and I also wondered if I might be inconsistent with school and thereby confuse matters.

One way to look at it is that at home there will be fewer demands placed upon your son. You are almost certainly doing things he enjoys and he can have his own space and play without having to wait for a turn, nobody knocking his building down etc.
Nursery can be busy overwhelming and sometimes not structured enough for some children.

I tend to agree with this. As parents we get good at recognising situations that might provoke poor behaviour and find ways to avoid them.

One suggestion might be to use the summer break as a way of reinforcing some of the behaviours that will be expected in Reception and offer lots of praise when DS does well. Things like waiting nicely in line at the shops/cafe, having to wait quietly for others to be ready ("you sit there while mummy goes for a wee"), taking turns/sharing things, sitting at the table until everyone has finished eating, asking for help with something.

I think the nursery are really doing a poor job all round. He shouldn't be being hit and kicked by the other children. They should be able to work with the older children on school readiness, and if he is already reading they should be able to provide suitable activities for him, without him as a 4 year old remembering to ask for them.

I think that the structure of a school setting, even though reception is still early years, will be helpful for him. Especially if the school has a consistent and effective approach to behaviour management.

Is he able to talk to you about his behaviour? Can you talk about what he could do if he's bored waiting that is acceptable, rather than push/hit/kick?

Is he able to talk to you about his behaviour? Can you talk about what he could do if he's bored waiting that is acceptable, rather than push/hit/kick?

He just denies that its happened which is frustrating. He has the "right answers" off pat at home - if I feel like hitting I will walk away/tell a grownup - but it doesn't translate to appropriate behaviour at nursery!

The observation that I probably manage his behaviour well without realising is an interesting one. I will watch myself and see whether there are any situations I'm avoiding. He's generally a patient child and good at waiting, listening, etc- in home situations.

We are taking him out of nursery over the summer as luckily we can manage this around work - for the v short term.

Are you taking time off work to do this? I only ask because if you are, then it may be better to save the time off for when he starts school. It's going to be a big change, especially with the ASC.

As for the transition, I would request a meeting with the school. They will have been in touch with his nursery and it sounds like they are going to provide a very negative view of you child. You acknowledge there are issues that need to be dealt with, and I think it would be good to discuss strategies with school before he starts. Even if it's just to show that you're open to working with them, as nursery may have said otherwise.

Is it because he is a big fish in a small pond now that he's ready to move onto school do you think? Dd was only commenting the other day that dgs and some of his friends have become very bold as they are getting towards the end of pre school. Dd has had no complaints so far anyway but dgs is definitely cheekier and he and his friends are more likely to need telling twice than they might have been only three months ago.

I work in a preschool and the school leavers (mostly the boys) are a bit if a nightmare at the moment. Happens every year. They just grow out if the environment. He could be bored. If worry that he'll be bored at school too. In a state school reception if 30 kids they will likely have at least 5 or 6 SEN, some non verbal, some ESL. They will not be able to tailor every second to him as you can at home.

However, school and preschool do offer opportunities which the home environment cannot teach. For some children, this will be mostly about turn taking, sharing, waiting and following instructions without half an hour of explanation (who has the time for that in a school or preschool environment). Perhaps he just doesn't need to do these things at home so that's why he's fine? Maybe try making him wait a bit more, even for your attention.

If his reading is very advanced, have you considered an asd assessment?

Another thought is that children who get bored are generally not very self directed. You could work on this. Don't constantly stimulate him and create activities/ opportunities. Can he play alone? How is he when friends come over?

@Whinge my dsis works term time only so she is covering quite a lot plus a few holiday clubs.

Nursery did indeed provide a very negative view so we have been in for many meetings and hes been observed in his current setting. Teacher thinks he'll be fine but head teacher has had a firm word with us about possible exclusion from afterschool which has got me frightened. Have asked what we can do to support but as behaviour is only at nursery- school also didn't have much to suggest.

@MerryMarigold agree, bored and ready for a change. he's going to a v good state school which attracts a lot of bright, advanced kids. He isn't the only one in his Reception class-to-be who is already reading and they have strategies for those kids. He can also entertain himself well e.g. drawing or with toys. Plays fine with friends - parallel play more than anything still.

Re ASD - i will consider it. he is 5 in September and my DM is a retired teacher so suspect his reading is mainly a product of maturity and opportunity. Reading at end of Reception level now. If he was a month older he'd be finishing Reception now!

However, school and preschool do offer opportunities which the home environment cannot teach.
I agree.

Maybe consider the autism assessment. The indicators are that he's behaving worse in school (usually where kids get stressed, can lead to worse behavior), parallel play (extremely unusual by nearly 5, in my experience they usually start to play with others around 3 or before), and the reading.

I would say this is perfect. You can use the reward system at home over the summer and give lots of positive praise. You can talk about or read stories about what you need to do at school to get gold cards.

Schools are sometimes better set up for behaviour, in terms of staff e.g. SENCO with training and in terms of a more structured routine and academic challenge, which some kids prefer. I hope it works out for him.

Hello. I was quite worried before my daughter started school as she used to have meltdowns at nursery and used to shout at her teachers in a temper. Both were behaviours which she never displayed at home (she was a very easy toddler/pre-schooler) so we were at a bit of a loss about what to do. I also loved the "How to talk so kids will listen" books and I think in some ways it made home lovely but didn't help her when being talked at by an authority figure at nursery!

She's now finishing her first year of reception and it just hasn't been an issue. I think school has been a completely different kettle of fish - they're used to dealing with everything. They treat and speak to them as the grown up, independent children they're hoping to see by the end of the first year. This suited my daughter and she's doing well. I don't think you have anything to worry about.

Reading early is not a sign of autism. Hyperlexia can be. If OP’s son is 5 in September and reading at reception level then that doesn’t sound at all like hyperlexia (where his reading likely would be more advanced than this) and just that he’s had the opportunity to learn. As OP says, kids who are a matter of weeks younger than him will have been learning to read for almost a year and be expected to be the standard he is now.

OP it sounds to me like he is bored in nursery and they haven’t been dealing with it well. Since he’s autumn born he’s presumably been there for years at this point. My DC1 (who was also bright, could read etc) was similarly bored, and she was a summer born so only had to go to preschool for a year. She wasn’t badly behaved but she was miserable - used to cry at drop off to the point where I worried I’d never actually be able to leave her at school. But the transition to reception was like a switch had flicked.

She has been happy and thriving there from day 1. In her case the structure and wider range of activities seemed to really help. Also her peer group was slightly different (sad to say but basically fewer kids with communication issues) so she blossomed socially as well.

I think you’re right to have this on your radar as obviouslh he won’t be able to behave like this in school, but the change might well be exactly what ye needs. I’d spend the summer getting him really excited for school and how he’s a big boy now and lots of positive reinforcement about how sensible you know he can be. He is probably also aware that nursery have a bit of a downer on him and it may be affecting his self esteem, creating a vicious circle.

Sorry i haven't RTFT

I have a child who thrives in some settings and struggles in others - I've been the parent who never seems to get a good report from nursery and primary... until in both instances I moved them elsewhere

The difference between my child thriving and struggling is dependent upon the teachers teaching methods and attitude to my child being positive

I came home and cried the day I heard after "hey can I have a word?" At pickup and it was "he's done really well, we're so happy to have him and I think he's going to fit in really well with the class. We had a moment but all he needed was some reassurance and he gave it a try and he did it!!!" and they praised him in front of me.

I never get reports over behaviour now, the difference is- they are able to manage it without making him "naughty" in their attitudes from the beginning

My sons old enough to express himself now and he reports that they just teach in ways he can understand now and he's not scared anymore of them. I just don't think some education settings have experienced enough teachers to cope with certain children and they feed them with anxiety and negativity as a problem to their challenges and some refuse to look at their children in the classroom as anything but "they'll understand once I do X, and remain positive about the child's ability to learn"

Seriously, consider moving your child if the teacher is unable to be positive about them on a regular basis- but research and check out the policies and methods used before you send them anywhere else- I got lucky when I moved nursery but by primary I wouldn't have had a good move without researching how they planned to cope with my child

Wanted to also add - one environment convinced me he probably had ASD and needed an assessment

We moved before it was done - new environment, different teaching methods and attitude and they said let's let him settle before we look into it - and came back later with, he might be and we aren't saying he isn't but we don't see the barriers to learning that the other school reported and don't feel he needs a diagnosis or extra support due to one currently

I could still request one and I think he probably is somewhere on the spectrum but a different environment is all he needed to thrive in mainstream the same as any other child without ASD currently- I do think that some schools push assessments wanting the extra funding and then don't actually distribute it to that particular child but across the classroom.

Maybe he has it but their teaching method just works for him- some maybe would be unhappy with not getting the assessment pushed for in primary but personally I'm really happy that it seems like a response to methods he can't understand and is quite simple to switch it up and have him thrive without extra intervention from an assessment

I honestly think some children are pushed into being diagnosed as an unfair response to teaching that doesn't work for them (my son I think probably has it but I would bet some children would never receive a diagnosis in other better structured to them schools)

He is probably also aware that nursery have a bit of a downer on him and it may be affecting his self esteem, creating a vicious circle.

Yes I think he's "the naughty one" at nursery and some days you can just feel the negative emotions from the staff. I don't disagree that he is hard work at nursery. We did have an SEN observation from the LEA and they concluded no SEN issues.

We will try the card system, focusing on the positives, and work on building his self esteem over the summer. He responds so well to praise and I probably don't do enough.

He is great at waiting at home (e.g. I'm a total disaster when trying to leave the house, ) plus he has a younger sibling so does have to share, receive divided attention etc. I do think the nursery setting is the main issue - it's about helping him to move on from that.

Thank you all for your advice and stories. It is really helpful.

My eldest was in trouble several times at preschool.
It became even worse starting primary. With behaviour like scratching, biting etc that we hadnt had before.
Lots of sent out of class or to other parallel class.
It did get better into y1. Still ongoing issues though.
And now referred for asd/adhd assessment.

It maybe sensory issues? Ours definitely got worse when the class went up to 30 during transition

Hello! Just wondering how your son is getting on now? My son was similar at nursery and although he seems a bit better now he's started school, some of the poor behaviours (hitting etc) are still there...

Hi @Worriedmotheroftwo sorry you are also having this experience.

DS is better but not perfect. He did a few days a week in the school summer club which helped set expectations. We had a few phone calls.

in class, we have had some silly behaviour which the school have assessed as a mix of attention seeking and sensory seeking. They have put a support plan in place for both. It's unclear now whether it's additional needs or poor behaviour learnt from nursery or a bit of each.

Nursery acted like he was a horrible unmanageable child- school are treating him like someone who can and will learn to behave properly in time. It's worlds apart.

We are very lucky to have a school which prides itself on being nurturing. Other local schools - would have been a different story.

Hi I know this is an old post, but I was going post the identical narrative.
we’re losing our minds. Really good (mostly) at home on play dates and out. Nursery was awful, yesterday we put him in a camp…disaster. DH suggesting we get in touch with a private behavioural specialist. I’m worried it will cost a fortune and we’ll be no further forward.

My son was also awful at nursery, he didn’t go for long and instead went to a small childminder. Then he went to school preschool and school where he is pretty good. He is very bright, summer born, and has high functioning ASD. School have been brilliant at supporting him and he does access after school club but it has all taken time. He ended up having an extended settle at school.

Definitely wouldn’t pay for any external input until school has started, and if you have money to spend, for my son taking the pressure off at the beginning with a nanny to pick him up and take him home to decompress did really help, if only because it helped us to have a less challenging conversation with school (as we had cover and didn’t initially depend on after school club).