Is independent from Y5 worth it?

[Lolaandbehold]

As the title suggests, really.

For context we are in London. ie demand for private secondary schools outstrips supply. The plan has always been to target the independent secondary sector.

My daughter is in a well regarded, highly over subscribed, outstanding state primary. She’s a bright girl but not particularly self motivated so in a class of 30, she’s cruising along nicely. I don’t think she’s getting pushed to do her best.

I’m now thinking of moving her to a prep school for Y5 and 6.
There are so many opportunities outside of the national curriculum, they learn 3 languages, coding, science, DT, cookery etc etc. They also prep them for 11+ which her state primary doesn’t do. I worry that she will have a better chance of getting her into a good private secondary from an independent prep than her state primary.

Does anyone have any thoughts? Especially if you have moved from state to prep and also to those with children that have always been in the private sector, do you feel like is it actually worth it?

My DC in a private all through school that goes from age 4 - 18, joined in y7 and if I had my time again, joining in y5 would have been a way better move.

but I wouldn't move for y5 just for 2 years and move again to a 3rd school for y7. if there is a good school you like that intakes into y5 and will then automatically progress into their y7-y11 phase (assuming expected performance) then yes, or into a prep with a view to staying there for y5-y8 and applying into y9 if you have target schools with significant y9 intake rather than just occasional places then yes.

don't underestimate the value of happiness, stability and friendship. moving a child who was happy where they were may reduce their academic outcomes.

There are many factors to consider - the child, the particular school, etc. there is no simple answer. However, if you feel your child can easily make friends and would welcome being in a new environment (prep schools indeed do have more resources to stretch bright children - in a state primary you will have to do that yourself outside of school), then it is worth the move, especially in the build up before the 11+.

If it's up to 18 than yea, but i wouldn't move for the last two years in a proper prep that ends at 11. Way too choppy. They really bond in the last two years and if she's happy I'd keep her there and get a bond membership now. It's pricey but cheaper than a prep.
Get her to start that and encourage lots and lots of reading and writing. Writing or maths is often where state school kids are behind.

Personally I'd save your money and work on your child's metacognition and 'learning to learn' skills. Proven to be fairly fundamental to success and happiness in life.

Don't forget the job of indie schools is to make you go "wow! Archery! Baking! Lacrosse! Latin!" And hand over your cash.

My kids' London state school did coding, science, DT, baking, French and mandarin. If you're selecting a private based on the co curricular offer I'd make sure there are lots of places, they don't cost loads extra on top of fees, the activities or subjects are offered meaningfully and not just in a tokenistic manner by untrained or non-specialists etc. I have a couple of friends with daughters and sons at top flight Indies in London and they were sold on the co-cureicular but peed off they actually have to pay for most additionally, and it is dear. That might not be universal but I do think that you have to be really clear about what you're getting for your money.

We moved DD1 to private at y7. She went from state. We chose boarding (now can be occasional/weekly) and just outside London. Why London parents don’t do this a bit more is a mystery to me. Much less competition. DD liked her state primary. Didn’t want to move. No languages. Not much of anything outside the NC. At secondary she flew. Loved languages with no prior teaching and enjoyed everything else. Loads to do and she loved this school. I would try and see if less pressurised schools are available.

DD2 went to prep in y4. Only scholarship group did Latin. Not DD. However she lives the art there and they did loads of clubs - included in fees!). Dance was extra as was music lessons. Maybe tutor for 11 plus? We didn’t bother because we weren’t entering the London frenzy. Opting out is much easier!

i am not a fan of alL through schools, the brightest often leave. It can also be claustrophobic.

This has resonated with me. I do know that ultimately it’s a sales pitch. But that said, it’s a lovely school. The money isn’t a massive issue per se, it is more if she will have a more rounded experience in school, with all the resources they have and the tiny class sizes, compared to the state sector.

We could just tutor her for 11+. That’s what we planned to do originally. She is happy where she is. She’s an outgoing, happy girl generally and knows lots of girls at the prep school. She won’t have any problems settling in. But why move a happy child?
The reality is though, a lot of children are tutored from the private schools and it comes down to the fact that the children applying to the selective secondaries will have the upper hand as they have been advised what schools to target and spent most of Y5 prepping for the exams. So by not moving her, we are doing her a disservice when we can afford it.

That was to Radiodread above.

Not Woldingham by any chance?

@Lolaandbehold
Queenswood in Herts. I would try and be less competitive. You don’t need to be in a school where every single other child is very bright. Just enough to work with and be friends with. It always amazed me how fantastic some dc are without being super bright. So many have a huge amount to offer snd they succeed as well. Plenty of schools can give DC a great educational experience without you needing to push too hard . Looking back - not at all in our case!

demand for private secondary schools outstrips supply.

Demand for State secondary schools that are rated outstanding outstrip supply in London, as do selective and semi selective outstanding state schools in London, but not really private secondary schools. There are so many shapes and sizes of school, everyone finds one in the end, it may not be what you dreamed about, but they'll find a good fit for their DC in the end.

The fact you need around 250K to educate your daughter from age 11 to 18 at London private schools reduces the applicant pool massively compared to top London top state schools, less than half for St Pauls Girls compared to Tiffin. Secondly high exam entrance pass mark for the elite schools, means many try, few enter. On another thread a poster typed 1400 applicants for 100 places at a top London private secondary school, as if 1400 applicants are all passing at 85% the exam entrance. And lastly parents like me who have been shelling out fees since their children were 2 in expensive Preps won’t be applying for just one private secondary school, we'll be applying for 5, 6, 7 even 8 schools, but we only really want 'the one' that her friend from Prep has applied to, is a short walk from home and has a great music department compared to school 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6.

So do not fear the 11+, keep your DD where she is and spend the money on an excellent tutor to train her mind and prep for 11+, take mock exams and use those to judge where to apply, a good tutor will help with this in the absence of a Prep head.

It’s not rocket science, if the secondary school you're after is on this list, it will have lots of kids applying, but many of them won’t be smart enough or the parents will just be hedging. A girl aiming for St Pauls will only apply to Francis Holland as a back-up for example, just as a girl who’s Francis Holland level, might apply to St Pauls as an ‘aspirational’ choice ( read no hope).

www.tatler.com/article/top-public-schools-in-london

Private secondary schools won’t assess your DD the same as the ones coming from the current prime ministers’ daughters prep school, so don't think of the Prep school kids having an upper hand. These schools are far more nuanced, just make sure she aces the entrance exam and gets some interview practice with a family friend, do your research, save your cash.

I think definitely stay where she is at. Just tutor and prepare from year 5. My dd is at a state school and will be going to G&L. She prepped for the 11+ end of year 5 (last minute decision) and did well. She is enjoying the fun activities they do in the last year with her friends. I think that is important. Also, if you take your dd out and put her into a prep, it is not guaranteed she will get a spot where you want.

There must be a fair amount of self motivation on your daughter’s part. Mine lacks self motivation. I have no idea if my daughter would even get into a G&L or a Wimbledon or a NLCS. No idea where she is academically aside from they tell me that she’s greater depth in most things but what does that even mean. Presumably there is a huge range within greater depth itself.

The other problem I have is that I don’t have a huge amount of time to prepare and to spend on past papers. (Full on job) Plus she won’t do them with me. I rather hoped that all of that would get done in a prep school.

The money/cost isn’t an issue, I’m really more concerned about taking a happy child out of a very good state primary albeit in a class of 30 vs whether she’s losing out by not being in a prep, where she’ll be “prepped” for the exams in a small class, single sex environment, with lots of extras and they’ll tell me what schools to apply for.
It’s a tough one.

I still would not do it. You are better off getting a tutor once a week and signing up to atom learning. My dd is not much motivated at her school either, she just cruises along like you say and attains great depths. But like you say, I was not aware what that actually means in the grand scheme of things when applying to schools that other children from prep schools are applying to. My daughter was however, motivated to prep for the 11+ and would do her tutor session and atom learning. Does your dd want to go to private secondary? Does she want to do the 11+? If she is sent to prep school and is not motivated, they won't be able to help much. It has to come within. I figured my dd is not that motivated at her school because she finds it too easy. But she was very motivated to score well and get into her first choice school. I see this with my ds as well. He is greater depth as well and used to cruising at school. Now when I have turned my attention on him he is willing to do the extra prep that comes with 11+ I am starting early with him since I know he wants to do it. My dd we did not think about doing it until end of year 5 (we had other plans). She did most of the prep herself via atom learning (they have video and worksheets for anything she was not sure of) and I would just remind her sometimes. I made sure to tell her that it was up to her and if she does not get into her first choice or others that is okay.

The problem is that the prep school will have been preparing for the 11+ in some ways from about year 3, and properly all of year 4. Your child will be seen as a prep school kid so assumed to have had that prep, but she won't have had it so you might be better off applying from state with tutoring at home, as they do all try to balance prep vs state acceptances at 11+.

Parents are mad applying for 8 schools with 8 sets of entry criteria. What a horrible y6.

Yes, I was surprised during the interview process when I spoke to someone who had a dd that applied to 8 schools! I wish more schools used the same test. For my dd two of the schools she applied to used the same London consortium test, so she really only had to take 3 exams for 4 schools (although she liked it so wanted more!). For my ds though, unfortunately, none of the schools use ISEB (I thought surely some would!). So each school we apply to will be a different exam.

Yup, my thoughts exactly. If you move to prep, it should be done by year 3 or year 4 the latest. Otherwise, you miss out on a lot of the prep.

@SamPoodle123
In Bucks, the 11 plus for the grammars is agreed by all 13 grammars. It’s a lot more straightforward! Private schools used to do common entrance at 13 but they could do this at 11. The move away from common entrance gives more headaches I think.

If your ultimate aim is to get her into a good private secondary, I would put your focus into getting her through the 11+ and, in my view, the best way to achieve that is to get her a tutor as state primary schools don't follow that syllabus. I was thinking only this morning about how so many kids from our bog standard state primary school got into private secondary schools - all of us used tutor (actually the same tutor). I think I'm right in saying, that private secondary schools don't care about the school you come from - it's all about getting through the 11+ and having a good reference from her school. My friend's son, who has been privately educated from the start didn't get in to the private school my son is at; he did get accepted at other good private schools but him coming from a prep school didn't give him an advantage over my son. Another friend of mine, whose child moved to a prep school when she was about 8, is viewed by the tutor we all used as way behind in terms of getting through the 11+. She's having a lovely time at her prep school, but that isn't giving her an advantage academically when it comes to getting into a good private secondary. My son was also cruising along at primary school but the tutor made him focus and step up due to the 11+.

Any parent doing 8 is overkill, but anecdotal evidence from my circle - those 8 schools will be divided into 4 serious , 4 just turn up as back ups of back ups, viewed as 'below expecations' that a smart child at a top London prep school should be able to handle. Its overkill but when one has invested for prep and intends to invest for senior, you can understand the hedging .

Its cruel for children that are below average, rather than super brainy kids that see it all as a good laugh and challenge, I wouldn't put mine through this, 4 senior schools max. More than anything I couldn't be arsed with the hassle for me and my DC, but I'm of the firm belief, getting into senior private school isn't difficult, the hard part is matching the right school for the child.

Yes, exactly that. Invest in a tutor and Atom learning.

Out of London, DD1 did 2. Plus Bucks 11 plus. DD2 did one entrance exam. No 11 plus. No coaching, no tutors. DD1 was state, DD2 was prep that went to 13 plus. No coaching for anything at 11. I feel they both had a great y6. Why would anyone need 4 back up schools? Madness!

We decided against it and moved mine in Y7.
Its a non selective school though and not London so it wasn’t difficult

That's the trouble with London.

Doesn't really matter where you live, for senior school there's a top school, with results in the top of the whole country on your doorstep. No parent wants to feel they are missing out on opp's for their DC. Nowhere outside of London is like this.

Its also hard not to succomb to the ratios of 1400 for 100 places panic, London is a big place.

Saying all that, taking advice of the Prep, using your gut feel, its perfectly fine to apply to one school, the child will probably get in (as long as frank discussions have been made)

That's my only problem with state primary, you are flying blind , especially in London. With just a tutor perhaps for advice. At least with all-through London schools, you can still take the 11+ for entry to senior school and prep them at home for other schools if one wishes.

Layer that with all the other stuff why we put up with 7K a term at prep- the better facilities , smaller classes, specialist teachers, guest speakers, all the soft skills stuff Prep schools offer. Is that worth the money? Depends on ones perspective.

As @Winebeckons says if ultimate aim is JUST 11+ entry, then Prep is not needed, just tutor. But I know very few people who JUST send their DC to Prep for 11+ places.

But with the different 'expectations' for a top London Prep and state primary, it probably does all balance out.

@Pointerdogsrule DD2 did go to an amazing prep! Fees just below what you stare from y3-8. However it didn’t have the London frenzy.

Both my DDs went to a senior school with plenty of girls getting the buses from North London. It was in Herts. Yes it is weekly boarding for some (Mon to Thursday) or day if you wanted it and lived close enough. However getting in isn’t overly competitive. Massive bonus. London parents seem to live in a frenzied bubble.

I can see huge advantages to moving out of London so DC can have a life away from ridiculous pressure . We have decent schools in the home counties too! Many locations in Herts, Bucks and Berks are just a short commute into town!