Is independent from Y5 worth it?

[Lolaandbehold]

As the title suggests, really.

For context we are in London. ie demand for private secondary schools outstrips supply. The plan has always been to target the independent secondary sector.

My daughter is in a well regarded, highly over subscribed, outstanding state primary. She’s a bright girl but not particularly self motivated so in a class of 30, she’s cruising along nicely. I don’t think she’s getting pushed to do her best.

I’m now thinking of moving her to a prep school for Y5 and 6.
There are so many opportunities outside of the national curriculum, they learn 3 languages, coding, science, DT, cookery etc etc. They also prep them for 11+ which her state primary doesn’t do. I worry that she will have a better chance of getting her into a good private secondary from an independent prep than her state primary.

Does anyone have any thoughts? Especially if you have moved from state to prep and also to those with children that have always been in the private sector, do you feel like is it actually worth it?

Presumably that's Aldenham? It's a lovely school, but not that academic unless you're in the top set or in the Russell group/Oxbridge stream.

I wouldn't move her now. I don't think its worth the extra money and upset. When I look at the destination schools of our local press they are very similar to the outstanding primary.

I would start paying for a tutor twice a week and put her in for a language class aswell.

A good tutor will be able to tell you which schools to target.

@jigsaw234 No. Queenswood. As DD is now a barrister it’s academic enough! I also don’t understand the lemming attitude that bright DC must be with the brightest of the bright? Why? Look for a school that adds value and gives a broad education. All Dc get mired in exams eventually but there’s such snobbery as to having Dc in a “top academic school”. Bright Dc really can do well at middle of the road schools and actually enjoy their y5-6 and senior school. Far better for mental health. No detriment to their future careers.

Not true - actual, focused 11+ prep starts at mid-year 5, after the curriculum is covered.
Been on both sides of the fence and can speak from experience.

Nothing against the state primary - been there and loved it, for the right time. Then comes a moment, when it is not right for every child. If you have the option, finances and your DC is up for it, then the move to a prep in year 4 or 5 could be worth it all the way. I know many who did it before us and after us in our state prep and to amazing results in top secondaries.

For mine, being in her state primary was demotivating, especially in the upper years - most of her classmates knew they would go to the local secondary - outstanding at the time, now rife with scandal due to huge mismanagement issues.

Moving to a prep was a blessing - for an academic child, who was not stretched in her state primary, due to lack of resources, focus on SATs and general apathy, being among driven, focused peers was a game changer.
The school was amazing - she was embraced, stretched, made friends (of course we had doubt, like most parents, how she would fit from a primary to a prep), and blossomed. Never looked back.

Yes, we could have let her stay in her "outstanding" primary, but judging by the amount of work that had to be put in home schooling, just to catch up and be at par for the 11+, when both of us were working during COVID, we were not prepared to do the same long term to prepare her for the 11+, even if there was an "advantage" of coming from a state prep.

There is no right or wrong answer. Everyone's situation and child is different. That is why sharing experiences is helpful. Staying in your primary may or may not be the right answer. Same with moving to a prep. There are many factors that play a role. Knowing your DC is key. Good luck.

Prep schools get very competitive from year 5 as that’s when prep for various enterence exams and interviews begins in ernest. An academic child entering year 5 isn’t going to have the same lovely school experience of learning languages, instruments and playing sports as kids who have always been in private primary. The focus will be on exam prep.

People don't all send children to prep schools for an 11+ place. Could be one factor, but at least the people I know and I don't spend thousands just for a good senior school place. There is a lot more to it that over the years children absorb by getting exposed to higher standards and experience.

yes but they'll probably be 6-12 months ahead in the curriculum compared to a state school by that point - that's what I meant by 11+ prep, covering things more quickly and in a lot of depth

Yes. A state school pupil will need to learn new content on top of what they do for school AND prep for the test. At least if your daughter does it from a State school she can take advantage of any schemes the grammar offers to bring in talent. Eg my local grammar will automatically interview all state school pupils who narrowly fail.

It depends on the school. I know a school that starts from year 4, introducing verbal reasoning etc. They ramp it up of course from mid year 5 when they complete the curriculum. Anyway, it depends on the school and the child of course. If a dc is having a terrible time at the state school and there is no other option but to move to private in year 5, then that makes sense. But if the state school is okay and they have friends etc, then no need to move to private in year 5, in the hopes you might get into a better secondary. It is possible to prep while at a state school and get into your first choice school. But again, it depends on the dc. It worked well for us. My dd is bored though I admit, as she already covered it all during her 11+ prep. But she is enjoying the fun activities with her friends and really looking forward to going to her first choice secondary :)

In many areas 11+ tuition from a State School almost costs as much per year as private prep school fees. It’s 6-7k per year in my area + books + many tutors insist on Kumon on top. So preparing from a State School is often an option only for the rich families who buy themselves into a school catchment. It is these ‘tutored’ kids who then struggle at selective Secondary schools as they’ve done nothing but 11+ prep from age 7 as parents don’t ‘need’ art or sports based scholarships.

Independant Grammar Schools (ie the ones you pay for) know this too which is why many now prefer to take State School 11+ students who qualify for free meals or have failed narrowly or who have non-academic strengths.

It’s why, if you can afford it, private primary can be better for a child’s mental health if passing 11+ is your aim.

Just be aware that not all prep schools prepare the kids well for the 11+ (or the 13+ taken at 11 for boys). I know of several schools where the support has been poor, and where more than half the parents are paying to tutor on top of the school provision, or else committing endless hours themselves whilst claiming “oh no, we don’t tutor we’d never do such a thing”.

Yes there are good opportunities there beyond the curriculum, but if you think it’s a golden ticket to secondary it really isn’t. Furthermore, many secondaries are deliberately increasing their intake from state schools at y7, and more people are applying to more schools which overall means that the ratio of applicants to places is going up fast and it’s becoming harder to get places.

The system sucks.

Also everyone bullshits about the process. Don’t believe anyone you talk to in person, and whatever you do, do NOT base your school choice on someone else going there.

I think it depends on the dc and what prep is required. My dd spent 6 months prepping (only started end of year 5 bc we did not know she was going to do the 11+. It was a last minute decision and in fact we did not even view the schools she got into until after she got the offers). She had a tutor once a week and did some atom learning. That is it. So we did not spend much on tutoring her. She kept all of her extra curricular activities on top, as she did not want to drop anything - debate, ballet, choir, gymnastics, netball 3-4 times a week and Art. She had no pressure and enjoyed the 11+ process (unlike me, I was slightly freaked out about it all). Anyway, in the end she is going to G&L. Going to a state school does not mean you need to be tutored like crazy in order to do well in the 11+ (my dd got offers to all schools she applied to). However, again it depends on the dc. And if she wanted to go to our local state secondary, we would have been fine with that as well. It was her choice to go for it.

Yup, this. We heard of dc prepping from year 4 with tutors and extra outside prep workshops etc that go to prep school. We have also heard of many kids at prep school that did not get into any schools they applied to or WL and not getting into first choice schools. There are many that tutor on top of going to private schools to make sure they get into their first choice schools. This is what made us decide to get a tutor in the end. I was advised by a friend we would be crazy not to. I did not know anything about the 11+ at the start, but now I know, if coming from a state school you will need a tutor to make sure your dc covers the entire curriculum in time for the exam. Of course you can also do this on your own if needed.

I completely agree with @SamPoodle123 . There’s a lot of hype about how far ahead prep kids are and how kids from primaries can’t compete, but my experience (2 DDs, both did state primary then private secondary in London) is that they absolutely can.

Prep might well be a nicer experience for the DC in various ways, but it’s by no means a golden ticket to the secondary school of your choice. From state, you will need to do home prep or get a tutor though, as they will get drilled for SATs but not cover the extra 11+ content, or do much on exam technique.

All sounds like child abuse to me. Thank God my DDs never had a tutor for 1 second! They all end up at the same universities. Why not accept the lesser destination school?

Perhaps because some dc might actually want to be challenged and go to an academic school? I do not agree with the pushy parents who force their dc to do an hour a day or tutor from year 4 in order to get into a school, but if a dc wants to prep for the 11+, then I would not hold them back. It is important to support your dc if they are motivated. My dd actually wanted to do it. I told her it was up to her and I was fine to send her to our local state secondary (its outstanding and would save us a fortune!). But I also said, if she wants to we will support her. Now my ds is in year 4 and already expresses interest to do the 11+ We are not tutoring him as it is too early, but he does a little atom learning here and there (his choice). For my dd we started so late bc we did not even think about the 11+ But since my dd just did it and my ds is in year 4 he knows about it and has already started asking about it.

I went through the London selective independent process myself back in the day and, like SamPoodle's DD, really enjoyed it. The exams were fun, the interviews were fun. I know it's much more pressured now but I expect a lot of it remains the same. We were certainly sitting weekly practice papers at my private primary in the mid 90s. Depending on the specific secondary school, most of the kids applying will be bright and knowledgeable and will enjoy showing that in the exams and interviews. It was honestly a lot of fun, not child abuse at all.

My DD passed 11 plus quite happily without but we are not in London. She was 1 mark off top marks in our county. She was bright enough and did loads of after school activities that she preferred. In fact the brightest Dc at her state primary school were definitely not coached and 4 ended up at Oxbridge.Brains are not acquired by coaching.

DD wanted to board though and we didn’t have her coached for those entry exams either. Had no idea what they were. I just told her to enjoy the conversation at interview.

Your DCs see all around them being coached so they want the same chance as others.Naturally . They do not know any different. Therefore, as they have realised the 11 plus is necessary because of incessant chat, they ask for coaching and expect to do more than their peers. My DD didn’t. It’s incessant chat here too. If you want to engage in it. We didn’t. The brightest around us also don’t bother much. DD did a week in August of familiarization and timing. Obviously you choose a path for DC but mine didn’t need years of coaching to succeed. Or at any time since.

My DCs are in the early years of primary school nowhere near London! I was responding to your comments about the 11+ in London being child abuse with my own experiences of going through it - which were extremely positive.

Also, my dd was never coached on interviews and she did extremely well. One teacher came out shook my hand and said she aced it. Also, if your dc was in a school that did not cover the entire curriculum, she would have needed to prep for that (w tutor or on her own). No way a child would know how to do something without being taught the basic methods. Private schools cover the entire curriculum by start or mid year 5, where as state schools do not cover it all until end of year 6, meaning you are at a disadvantage for the 11+.

And in London it is a whole different ball game then outside. We know a couple families that moved outside of London for this exact reason. So they would not have the 11+ stress. We also now dc that did not get into one London school, but got into a couple outside.

My child (DD1) covered the curriculum. Enough for the school we wanted. As I said, the brightest ones didn’t need extra.

As DD2 attended a very prestigious prep, I also know they had not covered the KS2 curriculum in y5! The brightest did in depth work. The scholarship group did more. The individual subject teaching was excellent. However our prep went to 13, not 11. DD did leave at 11 and passed the entry exam for the school we wanted with no tutoring.

There are schools where DC can go without huge amounts of tutoring. London parents must like all the angst. Weekly boarding schools are so much easier to get into!

@TizerorFizz Weekly boarding schools may be easier to get into but for most kids in London they would be a nightmare to get to! My school was 30 minutes away on the tube, including the walk at both ends. If I’d gone to Queenswood for example (I did live on the right side of London) I would’ve had to get the tube to Kings X, train out to St Albans (? not sure what the nearest station would be) and then get a bus? Or how would I even get to the school from the train? I wouldn’t have wanted to board and I know my Dad wouldn’t have wanted it either.

No doubt some London parents do thrive on the angst and pressure - but most probably just want their DC to go to the best school that they can that is not a horrendous commute away (hence why for the most part kids in N London don’t even look at the S London schools and vice versa).

Sorry OP we have rather derailed your thread here. Personally I was also looking for the answer to your original question!

Weekly boarding is maybe 40 mins twice a week! Hardly a big issue! Saves the anxiety. I do think some people like the frisson of it all though. The dinner talk and chatter.