Muswell Hill State Primary v Channing

[hydriotaphia]

Sorry, I know the topic of state v private has been done to death but nonetheless I would appreciate any perspectives.

We live in Muswell Hill and are fortunate to have several well-performing state schools near us. My little girl has also been offered a place at reception in Channing School in Highgate for next September. We didn't apply to lots of private schools as I had previously been set on state. Channing is fairly close to us, and on a bus route, though further than the likely state option.

I think my daughter is quite intelligent - she is very eloquent, can do simple addition/subtraction and can read unfamiliar words/sentences on her own etc.

My DH and I are really unsure whether Channing is worth it for a bright pupil. On the one hand, she will get more individual attention than at a state school, but on the other, its A Level results/university destinations are only ok, and not particularly better than our local state secondary, Fortismere. Channing's results for science are particularly disappointing. So maybe sending her there would be a waste of money from an academic perspective and what you are really paying for is nice facilities and for your daughter to be formed into a naice young lady? But maybe those things are worth paying for??

We just want to give her the best start and make sure she is challenged and achieves her potential. Channing's fees are significant for us but not the deciding factor. We don't want her personality to be smothered (Channing seems very 'straight'/naice). Both my DH and I are very involved parents, we read a lot with her and she goes to a couple of extra-curricular classes which she really enjoys and which we will keep up. So she would have the advantage of parental input wherever she goes. We probably should have made applications to more academic private schools but as that ship has sailed at least for reception, what decision would you make in our position?

TIA for any perspectives.

Following as we are in the same position..

We were torn between state and private. DD started reception 2022. In the end we went with state. We were offered a place at a good state primary, which we accepted. We personally felt that secondary would be the wiser investment. Plus the local school means she has local friends etc.

We are in a similar situation. We only applied to 2 independent schools as we planned to send our daughter to state school. She goes to a child led nursery but we began to think about an independent school as she is quite bookish and she has a summer birthday so we prefer smaller class sizes. We did worry that the Channing children we met during the visit seemed shy and subdued (though positive about their school). We also are concerned about their academic results. We didn’t want a hot house school but then what is the value added to state? It would be great to hear from someone at the school whether the school pushes academic children and why leavers’ results aren’t better. Also is the culture a more subdued one? Also we are uncertain about same sex for her entire schooling. We also would be keen to know how diverse the school is (ethnically and economically). We would agree that we’d rather pay for independent secondary but are considering independent now for the reasons above and concerns about the 11 plus.

p.s. Congratulations to both of your daughters on their offers. :)

Congrats on the offers! We are in the same position! DD has just been offered a place in at Channing for 2023 reception. She is at a local nursery, its great but relaxed and non selective - def not hot housed at home either. Huge heart and keen to learn but above all we just want her to LOVE school and have fun... real life is hard enough school should be a happy time in our books! We had hoped she might be offered a place but def didn't expect it...she is not notably advanced other than perhaps with language.

We really loved the atmosphere at Channing and she did too. We think the results are good enough and far better than our local secondaries.

But! It's such a big financial commitment for us. We earn around £120k jointly and after mortgage etc we will have to cut international holidays etc and be very mindful of all we do.

The local primary to us is good. Ofsted outstanding even. Secondaries are not. Therein lies the issue as we see it. She (and us) would struggle in the 11+ environment its so horrid and so options would be limited.

I guess it boils down to is private worth the other sacrifices and the inevitable pressures that may arise over the next couple of years with the economy looking like it does.

Not really asking for specific advice just whirling around in my mind over here!

P.s I know several girls who have been all the way through and they all loved it and are such well rounded happy characters...and at top University's.

Any reason you applied to Channing but not Highgate? I’d be put off by single sex, especially at that age, when they can have lots of good friendships with boys.

Small class sizes are great, and if Channing allows them to go all the way through without 11+ (like Highgate does) then you are at least sparing her the stress of the 11+ when the time comes. But in your position with Fortismere as a certainty you wouldn’t be compelled to go private (and you’d also have Hornsey School for Girls as a single sex state option).

Our neighbour is 16 and doing A levels at Channing, she is a lovely girl and not at all prim and proper (in a good way).

The working round Channing always looks a nightmare- bear that in mind if you think you’ll sometimes want to drive rather than bus it.

Parking

Cat13b I think if our local secondaries were not good I would seriously consider channing. Our local secondary is APS which is meant to be very good but its results are still not comparable to a private school. Still though, the commute to channing would be such a pain as I would have to drive my daughter and don’t know how I would then park without a permit and get to work! Then we have the added problem of my younger son and where he would go. Oh and we are also unlikely to comfortably afford it particularly if we have to pay for two! I would appreciate any perspectives on APS as a secondary instead of private.

@Catnary in our case we didn’t try Highgate as it felt quite big and corporate and we know people who aren’t happy there (though also people who love it so hard to know). Channing is meant to be nurturing and we liked it’s approach and values. Our daughter also loved the assessment. Our daughter is very happy and friendly and loves learning but would be the youngest in the year. We worry about the big class size at our state schools and we don’t have good state secondaries near us. Like others the cost will be very difficult and we have another little one at home. @cat13b it is good to hear that girls you know at Channing are happy.:) This is the most important factor to us and it’s hard to know which school will be right for them for their whole schooling when they are this young (and yes going to the Channing Junior school would let them avoid the 11 plus assessment so that is a big motivation).

The reason I was asking OP was because I wondered whether single sex was the single biggest motivating factor (thus not making Highgate worth the extra when state is also co-ed). Location is pretty much the same and I don’t think that there is much difference between Highgate and Channing in terms of size/environment at pre-prep level. Different kettle of fish from year 3 onwards though.

For what it’s worth (I have a son so Channing was not an option for me) there is a lot of playing and mixing between the sexes at pre prep level so OP’s daughter would miss out on what could be lovely friendships if she does go single sex so early. Question is whether single sex is a necessary compromise to get into the private system and bypass the 11+, or something that is important to OP in itself. But that is a well-worn debate.

what you are really paying for is nice facilities and for your daughter to be formed into a naice young lady?

I’d say that nice facilities are definitely worth paying for. As are small class sizes. I can’t comment on the “naice young lady” side but I would be very surprised if any academically selective, urban independent girls’ school in this day and age prioritised being “naice” over being strong, articulate, confident, worldly wise, well-read and willing to compete with men on equal terms. All their back of bus ads are of girls doing science.

I'm sure you'll get a nice young lady from your local primary. I actually don't know what you'd be paying for apart from the privilege of wearing a brown uniform. I really don't think it's worth it especially if you have to make financial sacrifices. I live fairly locally to you and wouldn't pay for primary.

Wait for secondary if you must and decide then based on what your daughter is like.

@Helen48 you aren't comparing like with like if you're looking at results at secondary. Of course all the pupils in a non selective state school are not going to get the same results as a selective independent school. It's what YOUR child is likely to get that is the question you need to look at. My dcs have all got 9s/ As at their local state secondaries (same area by the way) where the results would indicate that far lower results are the norm.

In your shoes, with a good state primary option and in Fortismere catchment, I'd go for state. Where you are there are countless opportunities for sport and music etc outside school so I wouldn't let Channing's facilities swing it.

We moved our son from an "outstanding" state primary to a non-selective private school at 7+. I would say that there wasn’t a HUGE difference in the first couple of years - mainly much happier, more enthusiastic (better paid?) teachers and a better experience with subjects like drama, PE, art. And smaller class sizes. He was definitely happier. The massive step change came in Yr 5 when he started being taught by subject-specialist teachers in all subjects and this gave him a real enthusiasm for learning. I don’t know whether Channing do this?

@hydriotaphia if you are not sure you could go the state route until 7 or 8 and then try Channing for an occasional vacancy or wait until senior school. Your daughter is 3 or 4 now, no one knows what the A level results will be like in 14 years time at either school. If you are results driven, you should compare GCSE results not A levels, because there is a lot of movement for 6th form.

Thanks very much all for the perspectives, these are so helpful and appreciated.

The reason we didn’t apply to Highgate is that the Channing application was a very last
minute decision (after going on a tour of our closest state primary and finding that we didn’t like the head/atmosphere) and the Highgate applications were already closed. That said, I do like the idea of single sex, though I would consider mixed private.

I think we are leaning towards accepting Channing and keeping an open mind about 7+ or 11+ applications. I don’t love the idea of those assessments but at least if she goes to Channing she will have the option of staying there all through and will be in as good as or even a better position for those assessments than if she goes to a state option. The secondary science results still give me pause, because I think it’s a bit poor that science outcomes should be noticeably worse than humanities at a well resourced school, where girls are supposed to be able to flourish without having to deal with stereotypes like “science is for boys”. That’s really what makes me worry about the school nurturing a certain vision of what it is to be a girl, as well as a vibe I got on visiting. However, it’s great to hear that others have encountered impressive Channing students. And I agree it’s probably not worth worrying about secondary results now as so much can change, with the school and with what our dd does anyway.

There's really no comparing the two. If you can swing the fees I would put her in channing. Her experience will be so much nicer and kinder. The small nurturing classes and the hugely enriched curriculum make a huge difference. Trying to prep a state school kid for the 7+ can be a nightmare and most won't get in. You can always apply for an in year place if she doesn't get on at channing.

@hydriotaphia Channing does not prep for 7 or 11+, you will be on your own and will have to get an outside tutor. My understanding from friends is very few DC leave at that stage, either through being "managed" out or if parents want a more "competitive" environment. Honestly I wouldn't worry about science A level outcomes, the school caters very well for STEAM subjects, arts being as important as STEM.

One thing I would bear in mind is mental health. I work with GPs in Camden. And they said to me last month that the majority of girls they see with MH issues, anxiety, eating disorders come from Channing. I don’t know if that is a girl thing, a private school thing or a Channing thing but it’s something to bear in mind.

Another thing is mixing up the classes. I don’t know what happens now, but in the past, Highgate divided up and swapped the classes at year five. Whereas Channing kept the same class mix from 4 to 11. That made things quite difficult for some girls who didn’t find their ‘tribe’ as they were stuck in the same intense group of 20 girls for the whole time.

Anyway, good luck whatever you decide. Ultimately it’s about the child and the school dynamic. I know two girls on the waitlist list for Channing so well done on the place!

I’m shocked at the breach of confidentiality by the GPs you work with @ForAReason. The duty goes beyond just not disclosing info about individuals. I’d ask for that post to be deleted if I were you.

My eldest daughter went to Fairseat from 4-11. There was a mix of girls in terms of ability (some extremely high) but all were within a very good range. Her cohort would have done GCSES last summer and the majority of her peers who stayed there went on to get a full suite of 9s. We moved her at 11 as we wanted coed but would have been happy for her to stay in terms of both academics and happiness.

I’ve got a son just through the 7+ so no recent experience of Fairseat but my elder kids (boy of 13 and girl of 16) have many friends in the Channing Senior School and they are all very well-balanced, happy, bright and outgoing girls so I don’t see evidence of the mental health issues there. Of all the local schools I would say it is best for mental health so I think there must be crossed wires with the GP feedback. Who knows what Covid changed of course but Channing itself is very nurturing so I don’t believe it causes any issues if they do exist.

Choose Channing, esp your little girl is very bright. Then do a 7+ for city, habs, NLC, St. Paul girls etc.