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Primary education

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Original poster

6/7 yr old girls - friendships and power plays etc etc - advice/widsom requested!

36 replies

katepol · 30/01/2008 12:53

I will try to keep this brief - my dd (I will call her Ella) was bestest friends with Louise from the start of reception. They had a lot in common, really enjoyed each others company, were very close. They are now in Yr 2.

Toward the end of Yr 1, another girl (Kitty) decided that she wanted to be Louise's friend. She told Louise that Louise wasn't allowed to be friend with Ella anymore.In fact, she wasn't to talk to Ella any more, and if she did Kitty would get very angry. Kitty is a very dominant child, oldest in the class, has some issues and is very 'adult' in lots of ways.

Louise is a quiet kind, fairly easily led, and was intimidated and yet impressed by Kitty, so has done as she was told. My DD - Ella - was obviously upset at this, and it was a while before we established that the friendship was 'over' because of Kitty's influence - up until then dd thought she had done something really wrong . Since then, Louise will not even look at Ella if Kitty is around, will not play with her, will tell Ella that she can't play with them etc etc. However, whenever Kitty is not around, Louise and Ella are back to being best buddies and just pick up where they left off.

Now, my concerna are :
(1) how do we make dd feel good about this when she sees that she is only good enough to be Louise's friend when Kitty is not there (not because Louise doesn't want to play with her, but she isn't allowed...)
(2) should we talk to Louise's mum about this. We have spoken about it before, but sort of left it that maybe their closeness was just dying a natural death. Louise won't say to her mum or teacher that she CAN'T speak to Ella, so it looks like I am being pushy, yet at the same time, Louise's mum is concerned about the power that Kitty has over Louise.

It is so hard. It seems so petty, yet is making my dd unhappy, and is also not a good situation for Louise, but I just don't know whether to intervene or not, and if so how, without coming across all precious??

Teacher is oblivious to most things and disinterested, so no hope of engaging help there. Louise is quite busy after school, but when she and Ella meet up after school, they get on so well, it seems such a shame that my dd gets ignored by her at school...

Phew - thanks for reading - that is dedication!

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MaureenMLove · 30/01/2008 12:58

The teacher needs to be informed. You can talk to the girls until you're blue in the face, but you aren't with them, in the setting where it is happening. Louise is being bullied by Kitty imho. Louise's mum needs to speak to the teacher. You could speak to the teacher, but it would involve having to put part of the blame on Louise and I get the feeling that's not what you want. The teacher should see all 3 girls together to sort it out. Its the only way.

TheHonEnid · 30/01/2008 13:04

ignore it - I NEVER interfere in these constant shiftings of friendship unless there is some serious bullying or unhappiness

carry on encouraging their friendship out of school. Try to encourage your dd to be friends with someone else entirely?

HOnestly things like this are annoying but as long as your dd is happy generally and her school work isnt suffering over it then I would leave it

redadmiral · 30/01/2008 13:05

Sympathy with you one this one. I bet you get lots of posts.
I think this sort of thing is very common in this age group. My DD struggled with it, as did a lot of her peers. Now at 8 they seem so much more sorted, and even the more dominant ones seem to have calmed down and found a way to get on with everyone.

We had a learning mentor at our school whose job it was to try to deal with pupil's personal problems, and she did lots of work with the children (girls as it happens) to try to act out kinder and more effective ways of getting their own way, and negotiating with others. It helped a lot at the time.

TheHonEnid · 30/01/2008 13:05

I dont see why you are worried about louise tbh and cant imagine what the mum is supposed to do! Looks like she has just made a new friend and trying to play with both your dd and her new friend.

TheHonEnid · 30/01/2008 13:06

agree that it seems to calm down at 8-ish

sure it picks up again later though!

redadmiral · 30/01/2008 13:07

Can't wait!

Original poster

katepol · 30/01/2008 13:20

Thanks ladies - am off now but will pop back later.

The thing is whether to let it lie, or make a fuss. If you ask Louise about it she will not acknowledge Kitty's power and will just say she doesn't want to play with Ella anymore. Except she does, when Kitty isn't around. It does look to the casual observer that Louise has just moved on from Ella, except there is more to it.

Ella does have other friends - she is happy to play with anyone, and doesn't take part in 'secret club' kinds of games because she thinks they are mean. Hwr, she does feel 'to blame' for Louise's (as she sees it) desertion of her, and I would like to try and help her with that. She doesn't understand why Louise can't stand up for their friendship, which is where I am wondering whether a little adult intervention or guidance might help?

OP posts:

TheHonEnid · 30/01/2008 13:23

"If you ask Louise about it she will not acknowledge Kitty's power and will just say she doesn't want to play with Ella anymore. Except she does, when Kitty isn't around."

well ok then thats the way it is - she prefers kitty, sorry but i doubt there is anything sinsister going it, some kids ARE more dominant but it doesnt mean they are being manipulative on purpose

can't see whats wrong with it - yes a bit upsetting for your dd, but encourage her with anew friend?

chocolateteapot · 30/01/2008 13:32

It seems to pick up again at Year 4 I'm afraid, the respite is only very temporary !

Fully understand where you are coming from but I'm afraid they do need to find their own way with this sort of thing pretty much. DD's class has a couple of versions of Kitty and I suspect just about every class has.

My DD has dyspraxia so struggles a bit with the social side of things. I have found the best thing to do is talk it through calmly, encourage other friendships (we regularly have people back for tea which helps hugely), never approach other parents about this and also to learn to switch off from it to some extent or you will go nuts.

TheHonEnid · 30/01/2008 13:36

couldnt agree more with chocteapots last para

hotcrossbunny · 30/01/2008 13:45

This was happening to my dd (Reception). An older girl in the class was dominating my dd's best friend, so that she wasn't allowed to play with my dd at school. Fortunately, before dd had had time to get worried about it, the best friend's mum approached me to ask if anything was going on.

She had a word with her dd and it is all fine now - don't know what she said, but it worked. The older one is still included, but not in control, hope it lasts....

redadmiral · 30/01/2008 13:47

Agree too. There is a psychologist who thinks that humans have such a prolonged childhood compared to animals because they need to learn social behaviour and relationships through these type of playground interactions. That thought gave me strength when it all seemed so petty and negative.

I think you can give your DD all the gentle support she needs, while bearing in mind that any comments you make will be repeated in class .

aintnomountainhighenough · 30/01/2008 14:03

I don't have any experience of this (but no doubt will at some point!) but my gut reaction is that I wouldn't speak to the teacher or Louise's mum about this. I assume that you are encouraging Ella to make friends with other children? Does Louise come around for tea? It may be that if you get chatting to her mum you may find out, in a roundabout way, some more info. I think you can either push to make the friendship with Louise stronger by inviting her to tea and encouraging your DD, you could just leave it and see or you could actively encourage you DD not to play with Louise and go and find another friend. Perhaps Louise might then change her mind about ignoring your DD when Kitty is around!

TheHonEnid · 30/01/2008 14:12

please dont talk to louises mum

critterjitter · 30/01/2008 14:23

It does sound like a kind of bullying from the stronger girl, though I doubt if she (or her parent/s and/or school would acknowledge it as such).

What about asking your DDs friend directly why she isn't playing with DD at school? Not in those words as such, but perhaps the next time you bump into her outside of school, ask her why they get on so great outside school, but not inside? Preferably in front of her mother. Perhaps her mother might then act?

Original poster

katepol · 30/01/2008 15:33

Oh, no consensus then, damn!

Tbh, I have left it until now - it has been going on for about 8 months now, and all I have done is have a little chat to Louise's mum when it first became apparent. Hwr, we are both busy and we don't bump into each other to chat anymore, plus our dds do different activities on other days, so there is no day that they can do tea together anymore.

However it is crunch time at the mo - Louise is having her birthday, hasn't invited Ella to the party (for the first time ever - Ella used to go to the parties and have a special tea party with Louise on Louise's birthday).
Instead, Louise has told Ella that Ella can come over, but only after the party when everyone has gone. DD cannot understand why she hasn't been invited, especially as they get on so well when they play.

I do encourage Ella to play with her other friends, and she is ok generally, but deflated about her best friend. I know if I ask Louise about it - I know her well as have spent a lot of time with her when she was with dd - that she will just shrug and go all shy and not want to talk about it...

Thank you for your input though ladies - I have even more to think about now

OP posts:

hotcrossbunny · 30/01/2008 17:24

In that case it sounds like the friendship has run its course Think I'd do my very best to encourage other friendships. Not to be invited to the birthday party says to me she's not worth bothering with...

TheHonEnid · 30/01/2008 18:08

yes that would be the end for me

I'd take your dd somewhere nice as a treat and not take her over after the party - would check this with the mum 'dd tells me she is invited over AFTER the party has she just made this up?' cheery cheery smile smile then apologise and say you are doing something FABBY then

then move on and forget about it and encourage new friendships

kittywise · 30/01/2008 18:49

My six year old dd1 is going through this with friends at school. I hate the way girls work. Boys are so much simpler

critterjitter · 30/01/2008 19:01

Yep, not inviting her friend to a party is odd. I'm surprised that the mother is going along with this.

Original poster

katepol · 30/01/2008 19:42

HCB, THE and CJ, I do see what you mean about the friendship. It is just they get on so well together - like an old married couple as someone observed - so it seems such a shame. DD is not ready to give up on her friend yet - probably because every week or so, she gets a chance to play with Louise (when Kitty is off school - pretty frequently and all is well again.

I like your idea of a fab treat for dd on party day, and I have told her that I think it is unlikely that she will be going round for tea with Louise on her birthday because if Louise asked her mum about that, she might have to explain why she didn't want Ella at the actual party, and Louise doesn't want to say.

I do feel more positive now ladies - in future instead of talking it over with Ella, I shall do more of the 'but what about x,y and z, they are lovely friends too, how about...' etc etc

Thankyou

NB I am still a little torn between being annoyed that Louise won't stand up to Kitty, and worried that she can't, but it isn't fair on my dd to be in the middle, so I will steer her away...

OP posts:

critterjitter · 30/01/2008 20:50

I would give it more time in anycase. Its likely that if Kitty is a bit of a strong character, she will one day overwhelm Louise to such an extent that she decides not to continue their friendship. Then its up to Ella to decide if she wants to continue their friendship.

Is Louise's mum that happy with this situation? Particularly if Louise is being overpowered by Kitty?

Original poster

katepol · 30/01/2008 21:05

Well, the thing about Louise is that she is a bit of a 'golden child' iykwim? Big house, nice clothes, good at things, so for Kitty, being Louise's friend is a bit of a prestige thing too - like she has got the 'best' friend you could have. Kitty is very much into things and what you have/what you are wearing etc.
My dd is much more innocent and not very wordly-wise, and actually Louise is like this too by instinct, but is also attracted to the worldliness of Kitty.
I know Louise's mum has once spoken to the teacher about Louise being dominated by Kitty, but is perhaps giving Louise more credit for being able to sort it out for herself. Whenever I have seen them both in class though, Louise is following Kitty around like a puppy.
Tbh, I think it would be hard for either Kitty to give up her posession of Louise, or for Louise to be able to break away without Kitty's consent.
Anyway, I shall make sure dd is as out of it at poss - maybe suggest that when Louise is Kitty-free, dd plays with some of other friends as she would normally.
Thanks again for your constructive comments and questions

OP posts:

critterjitter · 30/01/2008 22:05

Hard isn't it? I do feel for you and Ella.

hippipotami · 31/01/2008 08:14

I really feel for you and Ella. My dd is in reception and already this sort of thing appears to be starting.

Having read the whole tread, I would say that even though Louise wants to play with Ella when Kitty is not around, is that merely because without Kitty she has no one else to play with so falls back on her faithful old friend?
And when the girls get together outside school you say they play so well, but is that because it is just the two of them so Louise has no choice but to play with Ella?

Sorry, just read that back and it comes across as horrible. But the point I am trying to make is that perhaps you are giving Louise too much the benefit of the doubt.

The birthday party thing would be the last straw for me. I am surprised Louise's mum has not questioned her on why she is not inviting Ella (assuming mum helped her with the invitations etc) Actually, the fact that Louise's mum has not approached you and said 'L is having a party and does not want E there, do you know what is going on?' makes me think that L's mum knows L has moved onto K and is happy with the situation. So perhaps not so much of the L is friends with K because K forces her?

Argh, those are the ramblings of a mum who needs to get off MN and onto the school run.

Basically, to summarise, L has moved on, her choice. E has to stop holding on to what she once had with L and put that effort into finding a new best friend.
It is hard, very very hard, but E sounds like a lovely girl so finding a new best friend should be no problem

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