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Help - Disastrous 1st day back to school again (Y5)

32 replies

cowbags73 · 05/09/2022 17:37

Just been consoling my 9 year old dd for the past 90 mins. Huge chest-heaving sobs, and hot tears. After lots of listening and talking I could only calm her down ultimately by distracting her with some TV time.

We’ve been through the same thing since she started school at the beginning of each half term - apart from Reception when she was excited and full of beans and expectations.

In summary, she finds it impossible to make friends. I would say she has acquaintances - the ones who come to play dates and sometimes invite her back (my efforts at social engineering) - but they all have their ‘best friends’ and dd is soon dropped when back in a group at school. The other parents are mostly inclusive, dd is invited to parties but is invariably the one ‘at the end of the table’ while others pair up.

We know she is quite a character; she alternates between playing the clown in the playground to make people laugh and want to play with her, but then is such a stickler for following rules in class she gets frustrated with anyone misbehaving and tells them off. I imagine this goes down like a cup of cold sick! Today she said “I don’t want to have to make people laugh, I just want people to like me” :-(

I’ve sometimes wondered if she might be on the spectrum. She doesn’t display empathy - I’ve previously put it down to her age but see it in other children her age more and more. For example, there have been new joiners to her class over the past couple of years and I have suggested she approach them as they are bound to be feeling nervous and shy and she says things like “But I’m nervous, they should come play with me?”. She is very content playing by herself at home, lots of teacher role play involving her soft toys and our two dogs. Just to add, she isn’t starved of attention/affection - we play games with her too, watch her little impromptu dance shows etc but need to work as well!! She also hates any noise and disruption during lessons and often says she has headaches “because people were naughty in class”.

I approached her form teacher in the second part of Y4 to explain she was struggling with social dynamics and forming friendships after a couple of incidents where she was singled out. Teacher acknowledged dd is very ‘sensitive’ and went onto say the class is full of big characters and she had noticed she had been struggling. It was suggested she speak to the SENCO who told her she could go and sit in her office if it got too much at playtime - but I’m not sure this is enough.

I feel like she needs help learning how to make friendships and be a good friend - just as much as, if not more than learning timetables and fronted adverbials!! It seems like the other girls don’t have the same issues - or if they do - they all have that one ‘bff’ to back them up.

Is this ‘just’ classroom squabbles or is something else at play?

If anyone recognises any of the above and has any advice I would be so grateful. Dd thinks by changing schools she can have “another chance at making friends” but I don’t think that’s the solution and we could go through all the upheaval for the same thing to happen…

OP posts:
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Phineyj · 05/09/2022 17:43

Could you try play therapy? You can find therapists on the Owl Centre website. This has helped my ASD year 5. Different issues though.

smartiecake · 05/09/2022 17:51

I think it sounds like she could be on the spectrum. I would seek an assessment through your GP/paediatrics or camhs service in the first instance. It can unfortunately be a very long wait.
I don't think moving schools would solve the issue. She would be better placed finding like minded friends.
Its not the same but my son has ASD and now is a teenager. He has a few friends but they all have ASD. He is very different to neurotypical kids and would not be able to make friends in that way. Especially when hormones/getting older just make it all more complicated. If she did get a diagnosis it would help her to understand and make sense of why she feels left out. She sounds a lovely girl, she needs to find her crowd and then she will feel happier I'm sure. Are there other kids at school who are not the big characters and the incrowd? Do school have a buddy bench or a social skills group she could be included in?

lollipoprainbow · 05/09/2022 17:55

Oh OP this is totally the same as my dd10. I will add though that she was diagnosed with ASD last year. She just struggles so much with friendships. She had a lovely group of 4 at infant school but gradually they have grown apart. I moved schools a couple of years ago in the hope she would make some nice new friends but it didn't happen. There is one girl in the class who is very manipulative and controlling and has singled my dd out as her friend but I'm not keen on her at all as she can be quite nasty. My dd can't see it as she's just pleased to have a friend. She is under senco and they are aware of the issues but nothing really helps. We have tried various clubs but because she is so quiet no one realises that she is looking for a friend. I'm afraid no advice more solidarity !!

Wbeezer · 05/09/2022 17:55

My DS was sent to social skills class, he was teachers pet! However big difference between o passing attention to some rather basic group exercises because you don't like making mistakes and being able to put any of it into practice in a playground full of kids running about.
What helped was choosing a high school with a high proportion of nerdy boys (judged by what clubs they ran and observing how many boys did not care about fashion!). He eventually made friends based on shared interests and yes, he also got an ASD dx. He is always a bit behind socially but gets there in the end, first ever date this week aged 21!

Phineyj · 05/09/2022 18:16

Another thing that has helped DD is a music theatre troupe. She's got really into it. She also likes BMX as the social interaction with the (mostly) teenage boys is very formulaic: 'nice bike' etc.

She is included at school but she's been there since she was 3 so I think that's helped.

Lovetogarden2022 · 05/09/2022 18:19

It's tough and it sounds like there's bigger issues at play here so I'd maybe recommend speaking to a professional?
I would heavily discourage moving schools, but looking at groups etc outside of school would be great. Whether it's a sport club, or theatre or music or anything really where there will be people her age and peer group. That way you'll know if it's a school thing or just your daughter's personality.

academicyeah · 05/09/2022 18:22

It is excellent advice to encourage DC with autism or other social difficulties to find a hobby that is very 'in' so they have common ground with their peers. Football, skateboarding, Pokémon, dancing, horse riding etc.

And yes it does sound like it's worth investigating a diagnosis so you can structure your support in the best way.

I would look out for a social skills class or club, helps them mix with others without having to struggle or mask, and teaches them useful tips as well

teezletangler · 05/09/2022 18:36

This sounds a lot like my Y3 DD. I'm planning to start the ball rolling on ASD assessment for her soon. She was also described as "extremely sensitive" by one of her teachers, and she is the child who struggles to find a partner in class (according to her teacher last year) because the others pair off. She has a few groups that she plays with at break time, but overall friendships are challenging for her.

DH is a teacher and runs robotics and STEM clubs- not surprisingly he works with a large number of teenagers on the spectrum. He always reassures me that kids, even the quirkiest ones, eventually find their tribe. Shared interests and hobbies really help.

toodlesthen · 05/09/2022 18:48

My dd was almost exactly the same - she does not have ASD.

It's very simple, kids see behaviours in others that they don't like and that kid becomes the outsider. In my child's case she could not stop grassing other kids up for every little thing. I would talk to her over and over again about minding her own business/looking the other way etc., but nothing worked until she had 12 weeks of counselling with the school counsellor (state school) focusing entirely on friendship circles. She is now a different child. Honestly, she turned it around in year 4 and hasn't looked back. She's popular, she has friendship circles and she has a best friend. And I can finally sleep at night!

Speak to your school about this resource. I think it sits with Senco.

Examples of work covered during their sessions are social skills, emotions, bereavement, attachment, social stories and therapeutic stories, anger management, self-esteem and friendships.

Good luck OP to you and your little girl, I hope you get it sorted too x

exLtEveDallas · 05/09/2022 18:58

Ask the SENDCo if the school would use “Circle of Friends” Link: Circle
We’ve used this very successfully in a number of cases and I would say your DD sounds exactly right for it.

Google it and you will find a number of useful websites/worksheets etc

Wbeezer · 05/09/2022 19:07

İ forgot about the drama group DS went to, it was quite an inclusive group and helped more than the social skills class did.

cowbags73 · 05/09/2022 19:16

Thanks to all of you - I’ll gladly take solidarity as well as advice.

Additional info; we’ve tried dance lessons as dd loves to dance and sing but she found it too noisy and the teacher was going ‘too fast’. She does Brownies and has started enjoying it more since being made a Seconder as she loves the responsibility. We also tried netball and archery after school but as it’s the same classmates she doesn’t get picked etc. To be clear I can understand why other children find her hard work - as another poster said, no one likes a grass and she absolutely abides by rules. I’ve tried encouraging her to be more relaxed but she looks at me like I’m mad.

I’m so proud of how resilient dd is, when I think about what she experiences and how she must feel each day. But I want her to experience true friendship! I often talk to her about how ‘playground politics’ and friend fallouts continue in adult life and work etc and one day she’ll find her tribe, but my
concern is that’s a few years away and based on my experience, secondary school will be even tougher.

Thanks again, I’m going to ask school about the counselling options and discuss the option of getting her assessed. I agree changing schools isn’t the answer - I’ve seen several people do it over the years and it has never had the desired outcome because as much as it pains me to face up to, the environment isn’t the issue.

OP posts:
ittakes2 · 05/09/2022 19:26

please google inattentive ADHD - very common in children born as females but completely underdiagnosed. It causes a problem socially as the child misses social cues.

Darkness22 · 05/09/2022 19:41

It causes a problem socially as the child misses social cues

If you have time would you mind saying more about this please?

academicyeah · 05/09/2022 20:16

www.amazon.co.uk/Social-Rules-Kids-Need-Succeed/dp/1934575844

This has been quite helpful to us. I also have a DC who was a total grass at school and drover other children mad as a result.

lollipoprainbow · 05/09/2022 20:17

@toodlesthen @exLtEveDallas circle of friends sounds exactly what my dd needs she suffers massively with self esteem issues also. My Senco have never mentioned this to me, to be honest they aren't the best. Is this a resource that I could source elsewhere other than school do you know ?

exLtEveDallas · 05/09/2022 20:57

@lollipoprainbow you could get the workbooks etc from the internet:
www.complexneeds.org.uk/modules/Module-3.4-Emotional-well-being-and-mental-health/All/downloads/m12p050c/the_circle_of_friends_approach.pdf

www.twinkl.co.uk/resource/amp/t-c-6948-new-circle-of-friends-pack

But you would need the school / SENDCo / Teacher to be on board to implement in school. All our teachers are aware (esp in upper KS2) and use with minimal SENDCo input.

toodlesthen · 06/09/2022 17:52

lollipoprainbow · 05/09/2022 20:17

@toodlesthen @exLtEveDallas circle of friends sounds exactly what my dd needs she suffers massively with self esteem issues also. My Senco have never mentioned this to me, to be honest they aren't the best. Is this a resource that I could source elsewhere other than school do you know ?

Start with Senco at school. I think the resource at my daughters school is from YMCA - an external person who comes in weekly. Check out the schools website under 'well-being' or similar. Might see info there.

Knowing what I know now, and the amazing outcome, I wouldn't hesitate in seeking a private child counsellor, if the school didn't offer it. As you suggested, the problem was definitely rooted in self-esteem. If the school don't have a counsellor and you can afford it - go down this road.

I hope you find the support you need and wish you and your little girl the best of luck x

cowbags73 · 06/09/2022 20:21

toodlesthen · 06/09/2022 17:52

Start with Senco at school. I think the resource at my daughters school is from YMCA - an external person who comes in weekly. Check out the schools website under 'well-being' or similar. Might see info there.

Knowing what I know now, and the amazing outcome, I wouldn't hesitate in seeking a private child counsellor, if the school didn't offer it. As you suggested, the problem was definitely rooted in self-esteem. If the school don't have a counsellor and you can afford it - go down this road.

I hope you find the support you need and wish you and your little girl the best of luck x

I’ve started with SENCo who sent home a leaflet advising me to self refer to the county school nursing service. I’ve done that and asked about possibility of counselling but failing that I’ll self-fund.
Can I ask how you find a Counsellor that specialises in this area?
TIA

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Toomanyminifigs · 07/09/2022 11:25

I usually post on the SEN boards. I second other posters and think it would be worth thinking about getting her on the pathway for a neuro diverse assessment. Girls can present very differently to boys and it is often not until secondary/puberty that the wheels can really come off for them.
As you're already seeing, social interactions get more complex and hard to navigate for all DC as they get older. My concern is for your DD when she gets to secondary school.

A diagnosis for ASD (I'm not saying is she autistic but for her even to be assessed) is currently 2-3 years where I am in London. In the meantime, all the suggestions by other posters about counselling and other options are excellent. My DS has ASD and some of the things you're saying about your DD (her strong sense of right and wrong, places being 'too noisy') are very similar to him.

I would also second not moving her. From what you're saying, it's unlikely to make much difference and could make things worse as changing schools in Yr5/6 is tricky for any child.

Have you started looking at secondaries? I believe secondary open days are just starting now so I would really do this. You don't have to take your DD if you think she's going to get anxious but now is the perfect time to start sounding out schools about how they support DC with friendships, clubs etc.

You paint a lovely picture of your DD - I'm not surprised you're proud of her.

cowbags73 · 07/09/2022 12:58

Thank you so so much. I’ve had a nagging feeling for years there was something there but didn’t want to ‘over’ parent what could be just regular childhood trials and tribulations.
move just been reading about Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria and it has shocked me at how much the symptoms resemble DD’s behaviour. She has such outbursts at any perceived slight or criticism. Last night, she wanted to do a dance for us - during which she did a funny ‘exaggerated’ sassy move - so I giggled as I thought it was designed to be comical. She crumpled and started screaming “Why is everyone laughing at me?” before storming out. I went after her to explain I wasn’t laughing AT her but WITH her but she was beyond reasoning with, so I just sat and held her despite her trying to push me away :-(

OP posts:
cowbags73 · 07/09/2022 13:13

smartiecake · 05/09/2022 17:51

I think it sounds like she could be on the spectrum. I would seek an assessment through your GP/paediatrics or camhs service in the first instance. It can unfortunately be a very long wait.
I don't think moving schools would solve the issue. She would be better placed finding like minded friends.
Its not the same but my son has ASD and now is a teenager. He has a few friends but they all have ASD. He is very different to neurotypical kids and would not be able to make friends in that way. Especially when hormones/getting older just make it all more complicated. If she did get a diagnosis it would help her to understand and make sense of why she feels left out. She sounds a lovely girl, she needs to find her crowd and then she will feel happier I'm sure. Are there other kids at school who are not the big characters and the incrowd? Do school have a buddy bench or a social skills group she could be included in?

Thanks for your post, I now have time to respond properly. I think I’m getting down to identifying the core issue re friendships. I remembered they all call her ‘Drama Queen’ - not necessarily in a nasty way, and she in turn plays up to this and even chose a T-shirt with the phrase on to wear for mufti day . However, it’s actually very accurate as she does tend to blow things way out of proportion. She can’t take jokes or gentle ribbing, everything is very literal with her and she explodes. I think the other girls tolerate as much as they can then kind of leave her to it - hence she doesn’t have a close close friend. Then others steer clear because they don’t want the drama.
Poor sausage, I just want to help her. Secondary school will be so tough at this rate. I’ll wait to hear back following my self-referral to School Nursing service. 🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻

OP posts:
cowbags73 · 07/09/2022 13:17

Sending lots of sympathy and solidarity back - have you explored the option of counselling focused on social skills out of interest?

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cowbags73 · 07/09/2022 13:19

Good luck with his date this week and I’m so glad he found his ‘tribe’ 😊

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cowbags73 · 07/09/2022 13:21

cowbags73 · 07/09/2022 12:58

Thank you so so much. I’ve had a nagging feeling for years there was something there but didn’t want to ‘over’ parent what could be just regular childhood trials and tribulations.
move just been reading about Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria and it has shocked me at how much the symptoms resemble DD’s behaviour. She has such outbursts at any perceived slight or criticism. Last night, she wanted to do a dance for us - during which she did a funny ‘exaggerated’ sassy move - so I giggled as I thought it was designed to be comical. She crumpled and started screaming “Why is everyone laughing at me?” before storming out. I went after her to explain I wasn’t laughing AT her but WITH her but she was beyond reasoning with, so I just sat and held her despite her trying to push me away :-(

This reply is for @Toomanyminifigs - I thought ‘reply’ would tag the right poster. Really showing my middle age now!!

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