No good primary schools nearby and gonna struggle to afford to move, screwed?

[whunt188852]

Hi All

Not posted here before and new to forum stuff so apologies in advance for not using the 'lingo'

I have read various posts including guide to a good school etc and its been helpful but here is my dilemma.

We moved to our current house 5 years ago, its a great house on a nice quite street, in a nice friendly area and close to my parents. I grew up around here so know the area well.

Our daughter came along nearly 3 years ago now and at the time we did not put much thought into schools, the Covid happened and kicked everyone in the nuts.

Long story short we are now not that far away from needing to start applying for primary schools.

I have used locrating / Council websites etc to review and research the local primary schools and we are in a bit of a pickle. The school I want our daughter to go to considers us outside their catchment (by about 300m), the other school that is well regarded has us 'just' inside the catchment but we would not be considered high in the list as we are not 'in the church family' and its over subscribed every year for last few years. They suggest getting formal correspondence from the church rector to confirm 24 months of attendance!

The only school that we are firmly in the catchment area for is a bigger primary school that has a really bad reputation.

They had 5 bad Ofsted reports in a row then got taken into special measures then 2 years ago got converted to an academy (forced I suspect). Their latest published info re attendance / % achieving etc is all still in the toilet. Being cynical I think its because they are in the catchment for a really dodgy estate about 1.5 miles away.

I cycle past it every morning to get to work and the parents outside dropping their kids off don't appear to be high achievers, many (read most) are still in PJ's, many are smoking (not just tobacco) and you hear lots of foul language as well.

So I am in a situation where I have 3 schools nearby, 2 are great but unlikely to take us due to catchment area / not regular church goers etc.

Obviously the answer would be to move. I have looked into this and to ensure a good school I have looked at all the areas that are within close proximity to a few well respected primary schools but the cost of houses is beyond our budget.

Our current house is worth (according to Purple Bricks) £250'000 which is about what we thought. We could afford to move to something with a max price of £300'000 but honestly around the good schools we are £150k short.

So bit stuck really.

If I apply for 3 schools knowing that I do meet their catchment / faith requirements am I likely to get rejected by all 3?

Also if I refuse to apply for the rubbish school nearby does this mean the council can't offer us a place. In other words if I apply for the 3 nice schools (with low chance of success) is the council likely to say "sorry but here is a place at the naff school instead'

Really dont know what to do. Can't afford to move but also refuse to send my daughter to a school that is well known for being completely toss

Anyone any ideas?

So you can apply for the schools, list your 3 top choices, if you don’t get in to any of them they can offer you other schools in the area. You can turn this school place down though. I was in the catchment for a really good school (literally on the opposite road), and they offered me my second choice, but we had another child in the really good school so I refused the place at the second and said I wouldn’t be able to do 2 school drop offs and pick ups. They do 3 runs of allocations a year I think, so you can refuse and wait for the next run - people withdraw or change the minds or move so always a possibility. I was offered a place at my first choice on the 3rd run.

Your DD was born in 2019, a very low birthrate year, so things may not be as bad as you think. Have you looked in details at the oversubscription criteria for your preferred school?

How many preferences do you get in your area? E.g. where I live (London) it’s 6, but 3 is more common across the country.

You apply for the ones you want . Believe me I am a teacher and out list changes several times from the time of allocation in April due to families moving etc. if you are 300m out of the catchment there’s still a good chance you could get a place . Depends on the birth rate / sibling places etc .

Is the school you dont like usually full? If not, you would probably get allocated it if you didnt get any school on your list. However, if the school is usually full, you risk being allocated an equally bad school, just further away.

I'd always advocate putting a school that you are pretty sure of getting a place at the bottom of your list.

Thanks for the advice, in my area its 3 choices. I did not think about birth rates. When I last checked the subscriptions for the nice schools were over-subscribed but I suppose that could be people putting down as their 2nd place?

Its a worry! We could just take a gamble and hope that we land the nice school but also we could get refused all 3 and end up with nothing!

Really not sure what to do, the only property currently listed on RM that is firmly within the 3 catchments is £480'000k for a 3 bed semi.

Its crazy - I live in Nottingham not London.

I am hoping that the inflation / economy / house price boom drops a bit and maybe we can get something in our budget.

I even looked at renting (for 6-12 months) but again the only option is a 3 bed town house for £1950pcm!!!!

Look further ahead - what are the secondary schools like? Let's say, worst case scenario, you are offered the bigger primary with the poor reputation - what secondary school would this lead into? Some 'poor' primaries still feed into good secondaries and secondary is more important than primary long-term.

Also, go and visit this 'poor' primary. You will almost certainly be pleasantly surprised.

This is what a review from a education magazine states (from 2020)

"A significantly high proportion of children entering have poor speech, language and listening skills. In addition, many children have poor decoding skills, presenting major barriers to learning to read, along with the potential of significant risk of severe developmental delay."

So whilst I have not actually visited based on my views based on the people dropping off, the 5 bad Ofsted in a row (which is a trend in my book) and the bad stats for attendance etc.

It does not seem to be a good bet

Nottingham provides excellent school admissions data online. Have you checked for the last distance offered in the last admissions round at your preferred school?

Random example primary school here to show what you can find:

www.nottinghamshire.gov.uk/search-for-a-school#/details/3018

20% of places at c of e schools have to be offered to non church attendees

Bear in mind that a catchment is simply a priority zone. Knowing the catchment doesn’t tell you (a) whether all applicants in catchment got a place, or (b) whether offers extended byond the catchment, and if so how far beyond it. That’s what you need to look for in the online data.

You can research all the school commutable to you using the council website. I would be looking to see the furthest distance your two preferred schools took their pupils from the last few years and see if you’re within that distance. I’d also be looking to see what primaries within commutable distance had spaces and consider whether I’d be prepared to travel outside the area to a different school.

Then I’d list my two higher preference schools one and two and the potential commutable school with good Ofsted at number three. You are still likely to get the less great catchment school even if it’s off your list if it’s under subscribed, but your giving yourself a shot at something else. Also you should go on the waiting list for your two highest preferences and you may get in later if lucks on your side.

Without wishing to labour the point Nottingham Post gathers data on schools and for Netherfield Primary (the bigger school with a bad rap) this is what they say:

• 46% pupils reached expected level in reading & writing (compared to 65% national avg)
• Avg number of pupils per teacher is 26 (compared to local average of 20)
• Below average attendance both locally and nationally
• Below average for achieving in Maths locally and nationally
• Persistence absenteeism 11% (compared to 7% locally)
• 1/5 stars overall rating
• 1/5 for attendance
• 1/5 progress
• 1/5 for attainment

Out of the 14'800 schools reviewed, Netherfield primary is rated 14'000 so basically 13'999 are rated better in terms of all the above and only 800 rated worse.

Not good.

You can see why I am trying to do all I can to avoid sending her to that school!

How can I find out furthest they took from in terms of distance, surely that info is not in the public domain?

When you say 'bad' Ofsted, what do you mean? Special measures five times in a row?

You can find it on the page I linked at 21:11. In that example, choose an admissions year and you will see that in the dropdown information “distance last place offered” is revealed.

This isn't quite how it works. You should never turn down the school place offered unless you are prepared to home educate or use a private school. You can go on waiting lists for schools you prefer, but there is no guarantee you will get a place and you risk being left with nothing.

In terms of rounds, they will offer places later on, but only if spaces have come up due to other families declining their places. So if all the families accept their places, there will be none left to offer in later rounds.

I would recommend looking at any schools where you might have a chance of a place. Also remembering that places do come up later.

I agree with you that the information on this school is quite damning. It seems to be largely due to the challenging demographics. I would find out what it is like in the classroom. Are they struggling with behaviour and disruption or are the classrooms run OK? Arguably high numbers of underachievers doesn't stop your child achieving, although I accept it can make it more difficult.

The link that HonorHiding shared is a good one.

If you look at Parkdale Primary for example they had 117 applications for 60 places but actually only allocated 55 of them (the rest were not required). Furthest distance allocated was 1.32. Suggests that if you put them down on your form, based on last year, you could be successful.

Willow Farm however had 181 applications for 30 places and refused 24. Furthest distance was 0.22. All Hallows similar.

From what I've read on MN over the years I would suggest knowing exactly how admissions works for your local authority. Lots of previous threads with great advice and some real experts on here.

The school you mention has not had an Ofsted inspection since it became a sponsored academy. One thing of note is that more boys than girls met the expected standard at KS2 in 2019. Only 38% of girls met the expected standard vs 57% boys. This is quite unusual as girls often outperform boys, all other things being equal.

This is not a requirement of the Amissions Code, nor of the Church of England?

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1001050/School_admissions_code_2021.pdf

www.churchofengland.org/about/education-and-schools/church-schools-and-academies#admissions-

Is there anything else commutable? Can you move further outside of Nottingham? Do you both work full time? Could you increase your hours to fund private? That school sounds pretty terrible so I’d be taking drastic action to avoid it

Out if catchment by 300m.

You have a 3 year old.

Birthrate has declined. I think I'd take the gamble that she would get in to either option 1 or 2 without the need to move. You really are that close...

not sure it's been mentioned but if the school isn't ideal and you can't afford to move, why not get some tutelage? make sure you enhance the curriculum with weekend trips that tie into the topics, do loads and loads of reading and art.
honestly the first few years is not rocket science and if all you're doing is enhancing the material it shouldn't be hard.

reports.ofsted.gov.uk/provider/21/134930

It appears that they have been outstanding/good historically, even though the demographic will have been the same.

No inspection as an academy, so the Inadequate - in 2016, so ages ago - may well have been turned around by now - Inadequate Ofsted, and academisation often mean that all focus is on improvement, so it may well actually be a lot better than you fear.

Suspect attainment is as likely to be to do with the pupils (absentees, poor parental engagement outside of the classroom, etc) than poor quality teaching - something that I assume wouldn't be a problem for your daughter.

Be sure to look around schools rather than relying entirely on Ofsted, scaremongering news articles, etc. You may well fall in love with the place, or hate one of the other schools. It's a totally personal thing.

The declining birth rate has been an issue for schools this year in Derbyshire so I imagine Notts will be similar. By issue, I mean schools are losing far more pupils from Y6 than they are taking on in reception. 2019 has a lower birth rate than 2018 so I agree with pps that if you would have just missed out on your preferred school in the past you might get lucky. We really didn't want our catchment school either so I understand how difficult the gamble is.