No good primary schools nearby and gonna struggle to afford to move, screwed?

[whunt188852]

Hi All

Not posted here before and new to forum stuff so apologies in advance for not using the 'lingo'

I have read various posts including guide to a good school etc and its been helpful but here is my dilemma.

We moved to our current house 5 years ago, its a great house on a nice quite street, in a nice friendly area and close to my parents. I grew up around here so know the area well.

Our daughter came along nearly 3 years ago now and at the time we did not put much thought into schools, the Covid happened and kicked everyone in the nuts.

Long story short we are now not that far away from needing to start applying for primary schools.

I have used locrating / Council websites etc to review and research the local primary schools and we are in a bit of a pickle. The school I want our daughter to go to considers us outside their catchment (by about 300m), the other school that is well regarded has us 'just' inside the catchment but we would not be considered high in the list as we are not 'in the church family' and its over subscribed every year for last few years. They suggest getting formal correspondence from the church rector to confirm 24 months of attendance!

The only school that we are firmly in the catchment area for is a bigger primary school that has a really bad reputation.

They had 5 bad Ofsted reports in a row then got taken into special measures then 2 years ago got converted to an academy (forced I suspect). Their latest published info re attendance / % achieving etc is all still in the toilet. Being cynical I think its because they are in the catchment for a really dodgy estate about 1.5 miles away.

I cycle past it every morning to get to work and the parents outside dropping their kids off don't appear to be high achievers, many (read most) are still in PJ's, many are smoking (not just tobacco) and you hear lots of foul language as well.

So I am in a situation where I have 3 schools nearby, 2 are great but unlikely to take us due to catchment area / not regular church goers etc.

Obviously the answer would be to move. I have looked into this and to ensure a good school I have looked at all the areas that are within close proximity to a few well respected primary schools but the cost of houses is beyond our budget.

Our current house is worth (according to Purple Bricks) £250'000 which is about what we thought. We could afford to move to something with a max price of £300'000 but honestly around the good schools we are £150k short.

So bit stuck really.

If I apply for 3 schools knowing that I do meet their catchment / faith requirements am I likely to get rejected by all 3?

Also if I refuse to apply for the rubbish school nearby does this mean the council can't offer us a place. In other words if I apply for the 3 nice schools (with low chance of success) is the council likely to say "sorry but here is a place at the naff school instead'

Really dont know what to do. Can't afford to move but also refuse to send my daughter to a school that is well known for being completely toss

Anyone any ideas?

Special measures school generally have a lot of money thrown at them and can be turned round quite quickly. it sounds like the last inspection was a while ago - so have you actually been to see the school, or are you just working on heresay? Always good to see the school and make your own mind up.

Your LEA should post stats on at least the intake starting in September. You'll be able to see which schools you would have got into if you'd been applying this year, and this will give you an idea as to whether you have any chance for other schools. There may be an unsubscribed school further away that you would prefer.

Go visit all three and list them in order of preference on the form. Accept the place you’re given (what ever that is) and put her down on the preferred school waiting list so that as children leave (and they do) she can eventually take up a place in preferred school.

I think the OP is more concerned about the demographics of the school than anything else.

Oh, and in addition to my previous post; before we moved, I went to a school with the demographic you describe - my teenaged mother couldn't afford to live anywhere but a council estate with a bad reputation, and while she did care about my education, it was the local primary or nothing - and it was the most nurturing of the three primaries I ended up going to. I also went to a secondary with bad stats and demographic, which is where I gained both good GCSEs and good A Levels.

I have a degree, and postgraduate qualifications.

Parental engagement is the #1 indicator of success at primary age.

You say it's a lovely friendly area. Where do all the other dc go to school?

Hi OP - name changed for this for obvious reasons. I had a child at Netherfield Primary School (now left). Please go and visit before making a judgement on the school. My child was there when the last inspection happened and it wasn't a fair representation of the school. There have since been lots of changes of leadership (new head, become an academy in partnership with Carlton Le Willows). Don't get me wrong - there are some "challenging" families at the gates - but the school itself is nurturing and has high expectations of behaviour.

There is also the Rivendell Academy opening in September to consider so there should be plenty of school places in the area in a couple of years time.

Just move. You only need a 2 bed flat. Don't sacrifice your dd's future for the fancy house. You have the rest of your life to buy a bigger house. Your DD only has one chance at her education.

Hi @op and greetings from elsewhere in the East Midlands!

Firstly, there are some amazing people on the Education boards who know a lot about school applications and appeals, so do ask them for help if you need.
There is some slight misinformation (doubtless well-intentioned) on this thread.
If your DD is 3 now, you will need to apply by Jan 31; you can do this online and it is often the easiest way. You have time in September to look at schools, which will often have open days, and I would heartily advise this – including the local one that you don’t like. You may be pleasantly surprised. The intake is not high achieving, but the teaching may be good and behaviour OK as well.

To apply, put the schools in your genuine order of preference – if there is a place for you (usually on distance) at the school you put first, you will get that; if not, and there is a place at your second choice, you will get that, and so on.

The usual advice is to put a banker – a school you are reasonably happy with which is local and you are sure to get in, often your catchment school if there is one – as your final (in your case third) preference. This is because if no place is available for you in any of your preferences (and that is all they are, not choices) the the LA will place your child in the nearest school with places, so a less popular one and often miles away. The thought it that you are better in an unpopular school that at least is round the corner than one five miles the other side of town.

It sounds as tho for you, this banker would be the school you describe in detail – I have to admit it doesn’t sound wonderful, tho more recent updates make it seem a bit better. If you don’t put it at all, are you likely to get it anyway? In other words, is it undersubscribed? The council website linked below will tell you this. If it does have vacancies as a rule, it might be worth gambling and placing another school you like in third place, then relying on getting the local school rather than a far-flung failing school. I don’t think I would risk this tho.

Sounds to me as tho you are quite likely to get one of your referred schools as you are pretty near, but agree with others, look at last distances offered in previous years. Where do the other kids on your road go? That would be another guideline.

When you get your offer, do not refuse it, even if it is the failing school, unless you are happy to home ed. Refusing the place does not mean the LA has to find you another as they have done their duty by offering you a place somewhere. Accept the place. Go on the waiting lists of preferred schools, and appeal for a preferred school if you wish. Lots and lots of advice on these boards about appeals, and loads of experts too.

Best of luck and sorry for the essay!

haha meant to tag you @whunt188852 sorry

There are so many variable factors at play, but I agree I would not be putting that school down as any of my choices.

My DD starts in reception this September. She was born in 2018 and it was supposedly a low birth year. The school we applied for had 60 places. 30 this year went to siblings. Had it been a 1 form entry we would not have got a place.

I would not put this school down in your top 3. Research the other ones in your area and which ones you have a reasonable chance of getting into. Also there is always a lot of movement with waiting lists.

I wouldn't be gambling my DD's education on a consistently failing school.

My DD starts in reception this September. She was born in 2018 and it was supposedly a low birth year. The school we applied for had 60 places. 30 this year went to siblings. Had it been a 1 form entry we would not have got a place There obviously are years with lots of siblings, which is bad luck. However your logic doesn't follow - if it were single form entry there would unlikely have been that number of siblings of older children as there would be fewer older children in every year group. The number of siblings doesn't tend to change drastically and the bigger the intake each year the more it tends to even out.

Thank you for highlighting my obvious lack of insight!

Go to church now for the next few years, that is free. If you go speak to the priest you may get support.
Most schools have discretion to take another kid into year 3 if you don’t get in before then.

This.

I work closely with school admissions officers and there are always children accepted from the waiting list for year 7 from the summer term, often right into September.

If you don't get a place at one of your preferred schools when the allocations come out that's not necessarily the end of the road.

Your preferred school might be second choice for someone else and movement at one school can cause a domino effect of places being freed up elsewhere.

If you do end up with the bad school, don't be disheartened. Do they all feed into the same secondary anyway? It sounds as if the poor results are linked to attendance-in in which case the poorly achieving children are the ones who won't be there that much, so the actual classroom learning will be done with the children from the more academically involved families.

If it doesn't ultimately affect secondary choices, I should imagine you can influence primary achievement much more-reading at home, find some sites with fun maths games, do holiday projects like The Vikings, so you go to museums (if you can afford the entry fee), get them to write a story about being a Viking etc. You can correct their spelling and grammar.

Much harder at secondary when few people will be able to compensate by offering help with GCSE Physics, French and CDT, and advising on how to write an exam essay about Hamlet.

@whunt188852 The Progress data for the big school was not great in 2019. It’s likely COVID will have made this worse. Every indicator shows that poorly performing DC have got further behind with COVID. Not improved. I’ve no doubt the school will have an Improvement plan but I really would not be confident that this can have been implemented successfully. Changing attitudes is very very difficult. I would not think teaching will be brilliant either. Possibly there has been turmoil! As for the school getting loads of money?! In your dreams! Money improves nothing if it’s not well spent!

So you need to look at the Nottinghamshire data on admissions. How many get in on the church attendance? How many siblings at your preferred schools? How many from catchment and distance? Understand how they measure distance! As the crow flies or safe walking route? Analyse the admission criteria but put the poor school down unless you can be 100% confident of getting a better one. Would you travel further? Look at all possibilities.

If your DD goes to the larger school you don't like there are advantages. We live in a similar area, the cohort from DDs school were from a disadvantaged area (I'm a single parent), there is a higher than average % of parental illiteracy which often passes on to the children possibly through their own SEND sometimes through lack of academic priorities.

Children with interested parents are more likely to do well it doesnt matter if their parents are rich or poor but the parent-child interaction that is important. Even if a child isnt academic, children with interested parents are often more resilient and have better self-esteem allowing them to give harder challenges a go.

If your DD is bright then it is likely that the school will stretch and challenge her as they need the brighter children to do well. DD got lots of additional intervention and opportunities as she was very bright and continues to do well at High School which has similar issues as her Primary School and she has gone on extra trips and been given extra sporting opportunities.

Being a brighter or more resilient child in the class increases self-esteem but also gives opportunity to develop emotional intelligence and empathy. However, classroom behaviour is likely to be the biggest issue. If it has been taken over by an academy then over the next few years you will see lots of changes as they plough money into the school

You won’t end up with nothing, if your 3 choices are full then the council will give you a place wherever they feel like which might be the naff school or somewhere far away. My friend got given a school quite far away!

It’s worth applying for your favourites in case you have a low birth rate year, or if your school becomes a ‘bulge’ year and is given an extra class. I didn’t apply to my favourte school as the catchement had always been 0.5 miles. But in my year they took an extra class and suddenly the school was nowhere near full…

Also worth going to church for a while then asking vicar to sign form and see what happens. I know a rather scary mum who went to only three services then demanded the vicar sign her form and he just panicked and did it. She got a place at the oversubscribed tiny great church school. I don’t exactly approve of her behaviour but don’t approve of discrimination against 4 yrs olds on religious grounds either, and I do respect her willingness to fight for her child in a ridiculous system.

In your position I’d apply for the favourites even though they’re likely to be full, and I’d start going to church and try to terrify a vicar into helping too 🤷‍♀️

Maybe also look at further away good achools thst don’t fill up, is there somewhere you can commute to?

If all fails and council guves you the rubbish place, keep looking at if you can move mid year, places might come up.

I wouldn’t accept that your financial position means your daughter has to go to the rubbish school.

Good luck!

PS totally disagree with the poster who suggested that failing schools challenge bright pupils. I went to a crap school, and DD briefly went to one too, and my experience has always been that bright pupils are ignored while the teacher focuses on the SEN kids.

Go visit. Ask questions. Do not write it off

Was that last years data?

I am presuming you are in Carlton/Gedling area OP- I'm not seeing the kind of prices you are talking about though?? This seems to have about 5 primaries within a mile- including mapperley plains and is around your budget? I can see loads to buy that are all under a mile to lots of primaries

Maybe I'm in the wrong ballpark altogether but given your budget it doesn't look so-

www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/125567429#/?channel=RES_BUY

@Feetache There is no government attainment snd progress data for 20/21. It’s 2019 and earlier. As the school is well below average and below average in two categories snd average in a third, it’s asking a lot to get all up to average in COVID times. It’s simply too difficult. This school had 34% fsm. Thats high. They therefore get a lot of PP money. However there’s not any great evidence that academy chains throw money at schools. Money can make a difference to a good school but it cannot make a poor school suddenly more attractive to teachers or parents.

There’s little evidence to support the idea that bright DC in failing schools (or emerging from falling) do well. Often these schools are poor at assessment and don’t necessarily know what a child can do because they don’t set extension work and the curriculum doesn’t always stretch the brightest. They have not always been able to attract the best teachers snd these are vital for the school to make progress. So DC can appear bright but they aren’t quite as good when they get to secondary.

These schools do not just concentrate on SEN DC. However they might have a large cohort of lower attainers. In many schools these are the most difficult children to improve. It’s tempting to throw resources at them but most schools don’t unless it’s pp money.

You can be a bit tactical here if you don't get the school you want. Make sure she is still on the waiting lists when the reception year starts. Waiting lists are often closed at that point and have to reapply. Then either send her to the unwanted school being prepared to move her, or keep her at nursery. Places often come up two weeks into the first term as that is when the schools can release the places from children that didn't turn up, so I would avoid sending her to the unwanted school if you can. You can still hold a place at the unwanted school until she reaches compulsory school age (term AFTER 5th birthday) or the summer term of reception year, whichever is sooner. You have the right to do this but the school may not like it so you may need to insist. I know its difficult childcare wise.