WWYD? Pre-prep or state primary?

[SurreyCoconuts]

Hi!

Bear with me...

My 4 year old son starts Reception in September and nursery identified that he is particularly strong in maths. He can carry out mental maths i.e. deduct and add without any aides and has now started "Dynamic Maths". He counts beyond 100, can write his name. He is on Oxford Reading Tree Level 5 and has a good serve whilst playing tennis. He is relatively confident and generally a big character. Key worker says he plays the role of leader in his social activities.

He has a place at a competitive pre-prep school linked to a private grammar secondary school.

By contrast to our backgrounds - for secondary school, DH came out top from a rough state school having been to a state primary. I did well at a state grammar (was bright at Primary but firmly middle of the road/average at grammar secondary). So essentially as you can now probably tell: we are independent school newbies.

Sadly we don't have any state grammars close by so private is the only option if I am to replicate the competitive environment I felt worked for me. Although I appreciate his needs may not exactly the same as my own; I have identified that, like my son, I was a geek who loved learning and asked for extra homework. I voluntarily made scrap books on topics; would take tallies of the car colour that I saw on long car journeys and as sad as I would admit it, loved to read the thesaurus! He is showing signs of the same.

DH is now asking me (as we complete the school onboarding paperwork of all things!) if we really ought to pay for private primary education (or not!) and rather why don't we just save the £ (we should be able to afford it - joint income is north of £200k excluding bonuses, but also have DD in the year below to send through the system).

I'm getting frustrated as hate the uncertainty of sending him to state or having to compete again for a place at 7+ where the applicant ratio gets tougher. Knowing DS he would fair fine moving schools. He was totally fine switching nurseries when we moved/barely fased!

Also as the independent school options locally are single gender schools, we will have to line up getting places at different schools for each of our DS and DD and ensure these are in commuting distance of the other.

My worry with the state option is that my son won't be pushed or he will just be left to his own devices given he is already performing at at least Y1 standards. Worst still he may become disruptive. We haven't rejected our state place and DH is glad we didn't as we have recently learnt that the state primary intake size is only 22 due to a low birth year... I guess a small class size can be both good and bad. Probably worst if you have a disruptive bored child??

WWYD - stick to our guns with pre-prep or save and see how he turns out??? What other considerations should I assess? I am aware of the risks of less local friends, being surrounded by even more under wealthy than us (we are also relatively young parents - just hit mid 30s) and having to cover longer school holidays.

We have recently moved to the area so from a selfish perspective I was hoping to make some new Mum-friends. I assume harder if families live within 30mins of all directions from the school.

Thanks for reading my ramble!

I'd send him to the pre-prep, as long as you can do the same or equivalent for your DD.

How long is your commute to each school?

To be honest with your household income I would go for the pre-prep. If it is a low birth year at your local primary, you can easily move to the primary if the private school doesn't work out.

However, you haven't said much about the pre-prep itself. What does it offer?

@Legoninjago1 trouble is the 2 pre-preps for DD which are in walking distance of DS school are selective so not guaranteed she would get in. She is later in the academic year but hope she would get in - we don't have any concerns atm. My inclination was to send them both to pre-prep from y1 for DS and Reception for DD to ensure we are covered but worried we may lose the place for DS as we initially turned his place down and fear doing it again and being on the "list of parents that mess people about" and possibly miss out on future opportunities with DS offer.

We ended up doing state not pre-prep - in the main it’s been good, but you would want to know about their approach to differentiation and stretching/deepening work

Neither of me or DH had gone to private and tbh some of the other parents put us off as you have to see them more in primary vs secondary; overt demonstrations of wealth / snobbery / disconnect from real life (yes sure, not all parents etc)

Our class sizes have been small around 20-25 depending on the year

One thing I quite like is that the homework isn’t ridiculous (recognise this is school dependent) - it’s more focused on ensuring comprehension etc, I have had friends at private get a bit frustrated with the endless worksheet homework and crafting projects

I was also worried about the DC getting bored - it’s only really been a problem once or twice - particularly rears it head when they do revision of maths topics; else the teacher gives different challenges across the room although the DC are all engaging broadly in the same task

I think the main factors are how good is the pre prep, how much enrichment can you do outside school if you go for state primary (I don’t mean extra maths, I mean music / sport / drama / chess / whatever) and will that have an impact on your ability to afford things (as in, would you have to go part time, or get a nanny)?

I wouldn’t worry about him getting in at 7 or later, if he’s as bright as you say. And there are strong positives for a state primary - local friends, easy school runs, short day, hardly any homework etc all of which allow time for other things that you can tailor to your ds (and dd, in her turn). You’re right that in a primary he is unlikely to get as much academic stretch, which can be fine and allow time for him to grow his social and other abilities, but if it leads to disruptive behaviour it becomes a problem.

@SurreyCoconuts Your son sounds like he is very gifted and I can understand your dilemma. We had to make a similar choice (both state school, Surrey/London area, although at a lower income bracket) and had to think through the realities.

What we have found (comparing to families who went to state schools) is:

1. more contact time per child and more tailoring of teaching to the child's performance (although this will vary between prep schools), there is still a wide range of abilities but all are catered for (whereas in the state schools they appear to want everyone to get to the lowest denominator)


2. wider experiences (again may vary, i.e. french, music, school wide activities) along with extra curricular activities and before school after school care readily available in prep,


3. smaller year groups which means that the children get to know each other very quickly (good and bad),


4. parents are either very involved (lots of parent drinks and running the parents association) or not at all, lots of nannies doing drop off/pick up, and


5. wide range of backgrounds and experiences in the family groups (wider than state in my area),

I do not regret the choice that we made, but do wonder whether we would have been as successful in the state school system.

In terms of money - crunch the numbers and make sure that you can cover the costs if one of your salaries is removed. To give you some idea our uniform costs are approx £350 a year, breakfast club is £7, afterschool is £5/30 mins, and trips are extra. In addition there is a charge for mufti of £10/year and "donations" for staff presents at Xmas and end of summer term of about £60 in total. Holiday camp is £240/week but doesn't run all of the holidays.

My feeling is that your son will succeed in either system but may thrive in prep. HTH

OP are you holding a state place as well? If so then I think speed is of the essence here - for other families who might want that spot?

Personally if I had found and got a place at a primary I liked, then I'd give it a go. You can always move sector later on. They'll hold you to at least one term's fees if you duck out now - but as you have combined income "north of £200k" (TMI btw) then that shouldn't matter to you?

BTW if you are thinking of the Guildford area then I would be tempted to go state for your son and add on tutoring!

@CakesOfVersailles the class sizes would be 17 max and two forms. It's 20-25 min drive. DD could go to school next door and her school is connected to senior school (no further assessments). DS would have to sit entrance exams but 75 per cent of intake go to the linked grammar secondary. Big on music and arts and they put boys in sets for maths from y4. A huge appeal for us what with him being a maths whizz.

@ChnandlerBong yes we are but state is under subscribed and has places now. Called them recently to check. Yes we are on the hook for first term of fees - went into that eyes wide open.

The primary was our second choice and not massively wedded to it. It's Ofsted was good from 2018 but school has a mixed reputation from existing parents. We are 4th on waiting list for our first choice primary (which is in the top 10 state primaries and in a Trust of outstanding schools).

@gato21 why so?

@pitterpatterrain do you mind me asking what Ofsted grade your state school is? The things you've have raised have been things we are concerned about. We have done well personally but we don't come from wealthy backgrounds per se!

Thanks @gato21 very insightful on the extra costs! Trouble is affording both and mortgage on one income would be tight so would mean I would have to continue working but I couldn't not work! I love my job too much.

My info is a few years old and you might get more info from the RGS posts. When looking I found that the state schools in the area are very good with decent facilities. The boy prep schools seem to be better as you move out of the area (there is a mismatch between the girls vs boys, I have only had good reports of the prep schools for girls). If you are aiming for Royal Grammar School then it might be worth going for a feeder prep but the information I had was that a local state school with tutoring is also well received.

It does depend where you are based - Ripley Court looked good and I liked their approach, but it was a bit far out and the boys either seemed to go to RGS or Reeds. On the other side of Guildford Aldro looked lovely but I didn't get to go around there. We ended up moving East and decided that 30 mins wasn't a good commute.

@HighRopes thanks. Yes the trouble is I don't really know how to properly assess how good the pre-prep and prep are other than by going by where the kids go onto for secondary.

Our situation is based on me working part time (4 days) at present. I do always have the option to increase to 5 days worst case. I finish at 430pm everyday but with pre-prep I then need to travel 30mins so would mean a longer day for him but he and DD have been at nursery 4 days a week until 5.45pm since 1 yo. I'd probably leave work earlier and work through lunch to make collection easier. Our state option is 5 mins drive down the road or 30 mins walk..we have another 3 schools all under-subscribed (2 Good and 1 Needing Improving but coming under an outstanding trust) in catchment too if things don't work out.

Given the circumstances, I would advise you save your money and send your DS to the local school. You do not have money to throw around and you have a good state school option. You can nurture his gift for maths with tutoring which will work out much cheaper than the private school.
Private schools often sell themselves on the basis they they stretch really able children. I do not think that is necessarily true. You are just as likely (or indeed unlikely) to find students who are genuinely gifted in maths at state primary as at a private prep. What pre preps do is teach children the curriculum for the following year so that they are ahead of their state school counterparts in what they have covered - but that is totally different to stretching a gifted child.

£200k a year? You're stinking rich. Why would you hesitate ?
Independent school gives children so many more opportunities, music... sport... It will be a much more enriched education.
Since it is selective, I doubt you'll have to worry about the naughty kids causing havoc. So much time in state schools is spent managing behaviour.
Worry about DD next year. If she doesn't get in, maybe state or non-selectivr Independent. But right now it is DS starting.

If I could afford Independent school I would in a heart beat. Send him. Yes the school will think you're the type of parents to muck about if you turn it down and try to get him in a year down the line.

@gato21 do you mind if I DM you?

Mainly because we made it without needing to go private. Our heart was originally set on an outstanding state school. DH is fixed on being tight and having less pressure. Has goals of being mortgage free in 40s etc. All our friends who have done private only did for secondary. Never primary. His hesitation is just because of who we know. Also bound to get pushback from DHs family/in laws who came from 2 up, 2 down especially as they always want equality between SIL and my DH so this would be a clear difference (she is SAHM and so one income via BIL). Is state school as good as it used to be in the 80s and 90s??

The reason I asked about working patterns was because state primary is shorter days, may be fewer (or no) wraparound care or even clubs. So what you gain on not paying school fees, you may lose in terms of having to work fewer hours or pay for expensive childcare (a nanny who can do pick ups, take to out-of-school clubs etc).

In terms of how good it is, I’d ask about extension not just in KS1, but higher up the school, in particular what they do with outliers (ie not just 1-2 years ahead). And also ask around about school with existing parents - some preps rely heavily on parents getting tutors and so their destination schools aren’t really representative of the teaching at the school.

@HighRopes very good point!

Primary education are the formative education years.
I would argue primary is more important than secondary. The formative years and the attitudes they develop are very important.
No state schools aren't good. Surely you have seen the complaints about funding, resources, teacher Burn out etc? Not having the resources to deal with challenging behaviours?

I pulled my children out and decided to home educate because the state school teacher couldn't use too and to correctly. Their, they're, there.... various other things I can't recall now. All the communications made me cringe. She didn't have a clue yet she was teaching my children. Single income minimum wage family, so private school is very much off the table for us.

I would expect being able to use grammar correctly might be a requirement for independent school teachers. In the olden days, teachers had to pass a grammar exam. They dont anymore. Teaching is a backup for many who mess up their degrees. In some countries, it is harder to become a teacher than a doctor. We have veryyyy low standards for teaching in this country. I think that speaks volumes really.

I'd hope in a selective independent school they'd be selective with their teachers too.

Let him have a robust enriched education since that is an option for him.

I have no idea why the first bit is underlined

We left state primary to go private.

Our experience was that bright well behaved children are completely ignored by teachers, and become bored, even crushed. At the start of each year the teacher would happily announce that our child already met the expected level for the end of the year, and then teach them nothing new. The teacher’s time all went on the many many kids with SEN / troubled families. In reception my child was at year 2 level for all subjects except handwriting. In year 2 my child was at the same level except their handwriting had improved.

When we moved to prep, we were so sad we hadn’t done it sooner. You can glance around the prep class and see which children arrived after a few years of state education and which have been there since age 2. The latter are super confident and articulate and are way ahead in all subjects, especially sports.

It isn’t about class size, or exam results, it is about how you want your child to spend this period of their life. Ideally all schools would be like prep but the truth is, few are.

200k pa income is plenty to cover fees unless you live an otherwise extravagant lifestyle or work in an insecure industry.