WWYD? Pre-prep or state primary?

[SurreyCoconuts]

Hi!

Bear with me...

My 4 year old son starts Reception in September and nursery identified that he is particularly strong in maths. He can carry out mental maths i.e. deduct and add without any aides and has now started "Dynamic Maths". He counts beyond 100, can write his name. He is on Oxford Reading Tree Level 5 and has a good serve whilst playing tennis. He is relatively confident and generally a big character. Key worker says he plays the role of leader in his social activities.

He has a place at a competitive pre-prep school linked to a private grammar secondary school.

By contrast to our backgrounds - for secondary school, DH came out top from a rough state school having been to a state primary. I did well at a state grammar (was bright at Primary but firmly middle of the road/average at grammar secondary). So essentially as you can now probably tell: we are independent school newbies.

Sadly we don't have any state grammars close by so private is the only option if I am to replicate the competitive environment I felt worked for me. Although I appreciate his needs may not exactly the same as my own; I have identified that, like my son, I was a geek who loved learning and asked for extra homework. I voluntarily made scrap books on topics; would take tallies of the car colour that I saw on long car journeys and as sad as I would admit it, loved to read the thesaurus! He is showing signs of the same.

DH is now asking me (as we complete the school onboarding paperwork of all things!) if we really ought to pay for private primary education (or not!) and rather why don't we just save the £ (we should be able to afford it - joint income is north of £200k excluding bonuses, but also have DD in the year below to send through the system).

I'm getting frustrated as hate the uncertainty of sending him to state or having to compete again for a place at 7+ where the applicant ratio gets tougher. Knowing DS he would fair fine moving schools. He was totally fine switching nurseries when we moved/barely fased!

Also as the independent school options locally are single gender schools, we will have to line up getting places at different schools for each of our DS and DD and ensure these are in commuting distance of the other.

My worry with the state option is that my son won't be pushed or he will just be left to his own devices given he is already performing at at least Y1 standards. Worst still he may become disruptive. We haven't rejected our state place and DH is glad we didn't as we have recently learnt that the state primary intake size is only 22 due to a low birth year... I guess a small class size can be both good and bad. Probably worst if you have a disruptive bored child??

WWYD - stick to our guns with pre-prep or save and see how he turns out??? What other considerations should I assess? I am aware of the risks of less local friends, being surrounded by even more under wealthy than us (we are also relatively young parents - just hit mid 30s) and having to cover longer school holidays.

We have recently moved to the area so from a selfish perspective I was hoping to make some new Mum-friends. I assume harder if families live within 30mins of all directions from the school.

Thanks for reading my ramble!

@Wor this is literally what I dread! All the state schools just talk about the Mastery method and "deepening" the kids knowledge. I just know my son will be disruptive. He went up to preschool early at first nursery because he dropped his nap much earlier than others. If he is kept entertained he is totally fine but I see he plays up when bored (although do appreciate they've got to learn to do nothing too!) I know my son can name odd and evens and constantly asks me what words mean - last week "precarious". It is all led by him (and tbh reminds me of my childhood when I used to bookworm to death as I loved language! ... The Maths must be from DH! Ha!)

Thanks @SweetandSourchickenballs3 I feel this is true too. I recall struggling to pass the 12 + as it was then (had to appeal). I had no tutoring. Would be nice to know that the teachers there are focussing on them. Our pre-prep is selective - 6 to 1 apply.

Sometimes worry if it's my inner anxieties that are driving me to do this but as others have posted we can afford it for both. Plus it's only a bit more than having 2 at nursery at the moment so won't feel the impact straight away.

Thanks @SweetandSourchickenballs3 I feel this is true too. I recall struggling to pass the 12 + as it was then (had to appeal). I had no tutoring. Would be nice to know that the teachers there are focussing on them. Our pre-prep is selective - 6 to 1 apply.

Sometimes worry if it's my inner anxieties that are driving me to do this but as others have posted we can afford it for both. Plus it's only a bit more than having 2 at nursery at the moment so won't feel the impact straight away.

Thanks @SweetandSourchickenballs3 I feel this is true too. I recall struggling to pass the 12 + as it was then (had to appeal). I had no tutoring. Would be nice to know that the teachers there are focussing on them. Our pre-prep is selective - 6 to 1 apply.

Sometimes worry if it's my inner anxieties that are driving me to do this but as others have posted we can afford it for both. Plus it's only a bit more than having 2 at nursery at the moment so won't feel the impact straight away.

@SurreyCoconuts Private education is a luxury but for a very bright child I think its worth it going to a selective school with a wide range on offer if you can afford it if your state options aren't great. The main pros in my experience are:

1. A bright child in a selective school isn't such an extreme outlier. The work is set at an appropriate level for challenge and to develop appropriate levels of resilience. Its very easy to coast and develop poor attitudes to applying yourself when needed without challenge which later on can lead to under performance.
2. Bright children need less repetition to master new ideas than average. The amount of time spent on learning new concepts is much shorter in a selective school compared to state school for this reason. This in turn allows for a much wider range of activities during the school day. For us, these include computing, instrumental lessons twice a week, proper language lessons twice a week, swimming, a wide range of sport, proper art lessons, drama etc

It's possible to replicate this going state (academic tutoring, music lessons, language lessons, sports etc) but you'd be doing lots of things outside of school hours rather that within the school day. This means you and your son would be run ragged. If you work, it adds a lot of additional pressure on family life.

So if you can afford it, particularly if your state option isn't impressive, I'd recommend private

@ConfusedaboutSchool thanks so much for your insight. A compelling argument as a working mum. I'm already exhausted from taking them to Playball, swimming, drama and ballet and that's with them at nursery until 6pm. Your point about bright kids needing less repetition and so the net effect is more time for enrichment and better quality family time outside of school hours is precisely what I told my husband a while ago - need to recycle this one as it is an excellent point! I think I am now sold!

We opted for state primary for our DS who similarly showed signs of being a "maths whizz" while at pre school. We've enjoyed local friendships, a short journey to school etc. However, we've now decided to move him to selective prep from year 3. The lack of stretch in maths is frustrating him as is the general pace of other activities. It has started to affect his behaviour in and out of school. We also feel he will find more like-minded friends to listen to/share his mad professor ideas! I think he would have benefitted from starting the prep sooner and he will be trying to catch up on things like competitive sport, music and performing opportunities. If I were you I would feel nervous to give up that place now and hope for an offer at 7+. You will also need to dedicate time or tutoring to get him ready for 7+ or 11+ if you wait until then. Going there sooner, you have the benefit of many more extra curricular opportunities and the related longer hours.

Ds is at an excellent and academic prep school. He is almost 6yo and it has been the best decision. He is in a class of 18. His teachers know each and every single child in detail, are always available everyday for any progress updates, they have a plan and targets for him, the opportunities he has been fortunate to experience so far is just worth it. I just feel the added value in every aspect. I also like that there are so many extra curricular activities that can be done at school. Ds is also very sensitive and reserved, the school had a plan to increase his confidence and guided with strategies for home as well. My point is that besides the academics, they are also developing his personal self. I can't imagine a single teacher with 30 students barely touches any of these aspects. I could be wrong about this and I'm not sure if a state school has one teacher per class, but our prep has 2 teachers per class. So not a TA but 2 teachers. Your ds sounds very much like my ds at that age and I feel that choosing the prep was the best for him - he is thriving in ways that absolutely amazes me everyday. I would sit down with the numbers and see how you could make this work.

When we started in Reception it had just got taken over by a nearby (outstanding) academy so at needs improvement or whatever it was called at the time

It is now good with outstanding EYFS - it would not surprise me if it got outstanding next time around

The headteacher makes a difference - are they striving and pushing vs sat on their laurels

One thing to note is the school has subject teachers in music, PE and a language and gets outside provision for art, other sports (dance, gymnatics etc) and IT

my DSis state doesn’t have this so if it were one teacher for all we would also be less happy iyswim

the after school and before school club provision is also reasonable

It’s never that easy to just ask the question private vs state. You need to compare the pluses and minuses of the two specific schools.

There’s a state primary by us that knocks the socks off one of the local preps. Catchment is tiny. A wide range of extra curricular activities available, breakfast and after school clubs, Forest school, very active PTA, known for great SEN but also has clear policies for gifted and talented children (not just in academics). To be fair a lot of the extra curriculars you have to pay for, but it’s an awful lot cheaper than private. A lot of children go onto the local grammars from there.

The prep is on a tiny site and has to rotate playtimes as the outside space isn’t big enough to hold more than two classes. Sport (other than netball and dodgeball) has to be done off site or doesn’t exist. Year groups so small that they have too many children for one netball team but not enough for two so some miss out. There’s a lot of time sat at desks. Art is done in their classroom. Apart from an IT suite there are no other specialist classrooms. A similar number go onto the grammars. I honestly wouldn’t pay for it.

But then we have some preps that are just AMAZING. Schools which you wouldn’t hesitate to choose over the fab state primary if you have the money.

Ultimately it’s about gut feel though. Would both you and your son feel happy and like you fit in there? Will all the other children have SAHMs and be there for every assembly, prize giving, sports match and play (there’s a lot at private schools)? It can be miserable if you’re the only child whose parent can never come to these things because they’re working. This would be compounded further by two children in two different schools.

I think your mind is already made up to be honest and that’s your gut reaction talking.

At this stage you will be liable for a term's fees in lieu of notice if you withdraw now. Is there a waiting kist at the state school, so another child will fill the place?

@LIZS that is correct re the fees and DH and I paid it knowing the risk. Also no waiting list for the state option as they didn't meet their numbers. Class is only 21 excluding us. The other 2 local state schools have spaces too as we are in a low birth year in this area.

@BookwormButNoTime I agree - totally not knocking state schools... Had we got our first option I would have felt the decision would be harder. However this second choice school - well there isn't a lot to go on other than they have decent clubs and after school. There is a teacher and TA for each classroom so with a class size of 22 (as it is at present) it wouldn't look too bad at present but it's more about whether the work being set for him would be challenging enough. The school also has a lot of parents grumbling about lack of comms and ongoing bullying issues not being dealt with (2 families confirmed this). The head came across ok - did lack a strong personality. Rumours have it y6 results are so bad that they school are applying for some sort of dispensation to not submit their SATS results. My teacher friend tells me this is only when you can evidence performance is at least 2 or 3 years below where they are meant to be. I'm told there is a clique of SATM on the parents friends committee at the state school and they're the only ones that raved about how good the school has been for their kids on my recent local FB post.

I see your point though that it does depend on the facilities and numbers.I am told the classes are 18 max and 2 forms and then increase to 3 and 4 forms from KS2 at the Prep so does get quite large. The site it tightly knit as it's in a city but it does have a fancy indoor sports hall, sports grounds (but not acres of it) and separate Art and Design Tech classrooms. They gained extra space as they used to go to 13+ entry but now stopped to 11+ so facilities are now being split across pre-prep and prep.

Hi OP. So are you only thinking of the grammar school then? Personally I wouldn't want a prep that finished at Yr 6 as we're looking at 13+ entry for the next stage, but if your goal is that one school at Yr 7 then that's obvs not an issue for you. Also has no bearing on your state v pre prep question.

@SurreyCoconuts its nothing to do with your in laws!

I’m very happy with DS’ prep school but they do affordable wraparound care 7.30-6pm and a large variety of clubs which are included in the fees.

@Legoninjago1 yes but now you mentioned it, it has made me think!

From what you've said at the state school and your financial circumstances, I'd go for the prep.

In addition to points made above, poor comms in a school makes life a lot harder as a working parent. DC1 started in a local school where communications was poor. You can end up with entire WhatsApp groups of parents confused and having to contact school to e.g. sort out whether they need to take in a packed lunch or which date something is happening on because they different communications have different dates on.... It also seemed to feed through into teacher parent comms not being a priority, so e.g. accidents weren't always properly reported to parents or issues with behaviour weren't handled well.

He's now in an efficiently run school and it's a world apart!

Stick to the state system. Move if it fails.

If you are earning £200k you shoudnt even think about state option. My daughter was counting up to 1000, writüng her name surname her sister name when. She was 3. She is now 7 nows all time tables, reads caption book.. She is in state school in year 2 right now bıt we will move her private next year as she keeps saying she is waiting others to complete their work, school is boring because she knows all topic etc... their teacher teaching 2,5,10 time tables and I asked her to give her harder work and she told me they can not do that if the child is in expecting level they give up and focus on other kids who needs to improve. They have 32 students in class and you can not expect more in state system. Meanwhile she was in super good outstanding school and we were so happy with the friends and teachers. Plus school was 1 min walk from our house. Now I will drive 10-15 mins and oay about 17k for her to be more happy and successful. Its deserves! We live, we earn, we work for our kids... ıf you do not have enough money its something different but you do. Plus, I do believe if you provide best education to your child maybe he will get scholarships in secondary. Bright kids in uk stytem even need tutor for 11+. Because they dont have experience in exam, papers, timing etc. Trust me its full of stress. Let him shine!

@mydearsunnnyyyy thanks for your help and honesty. I know we are in a unique position and should therefore be grateful. DH is just so incredibly tight and as my OP says he did well in a pretty average/bad school. Difference is his Mum was SAHM and sat with him every night for homework; rushed him about for all sports and drama - judo, football, Stagecoach, rugby, cricket and swimming (prob not all at once!) Difference is I work 4 days a week and the thought of doing that on top of a fairly stressful job just fills me with dread. I hate the idea of "delegating parenting" to the school which one of my friends rather unhelpfully described the independent system as; but it's not quite that really! That's clearly an emotional statement and of course we give our DC the attention they need/should have when with us! They are our world 😍

I have considered quitting so many times during these early years (as I couldn't see how I could do state hours and my job) but so glad we didn't as can now afford to do this. One person posted earlier about having to pay cost of nanny (which was a reality that we were looking at) and if any costs are needed to support our family, surely private school is better. Balancing the possible lack of good quality teaching and turnover of nannies ruled that one out. Also the use of incorrect grammar around the children (which I spotted when I interviewed a few in the past) just drove me up the wall! The kids are so impressionable at this age - must take care who they're exposed to at this age (indeed at any tbh!)

If I had your income I would have gone for private. I also have a very bright child who is way ahead of the curriculum and I think he would really benefit from a broader curriculum. We are way off your income though!

I have twins in reception that we moved half way through the year from an outstanding state to private. No signs mine are especially gifted- summer born and a bit young for their age, they were probably in middle/bottom half of class at the beginning of the year, and am really pleased with the move.

although state school and teacher were outstanding, a class of 31 is just too big, even with an extra TA. I volunteered for a couple of days and class atmosphere was mostly crowd control. My normally happy confident girls we frustrated and increasingly resistant about going to school. What tipped it was attending the fall parent teacher conference and the only thing the teacher could say about either kid was the assessment score - it was really clear that this was a numbers game. No judgment to the teacher - that’s just how the teacher and school are incentivised I think. The majority of children are well provided for, but I think relatively few really thrive.

private has been a different experience altogether. The biggest benefit is that each girl is treated as an individual. With reading as an example, the teacher observed different learning styles and suggested different books and exercises. I am not sure if there has been a difference in how fast they have progressed, but they are noticeably happier and more confident when it comes to school work. They also do SO much more in a school day, both academic and fun stuff, without coming home stressed and exhausted.

there are also loads of little benefits that make all of our lives easier, including longer school day, excellent flexible (and surprisingly cheap!) wrap around care, access to flexible holiday club provision, as well as loads of enrichments that ordinarily would happen after school (swim lessons in particular).

the downsides are super small class sizes mean less variety of playmates. I also find the longer term financial commitment a bit frightening when looking ahead to 13 years of ever increasing school fees. It is not a financial hardship at the moment, but it is a staggering amount when all added up.