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Primary education

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Visit to local hunt kennels facing prosecution by primary school - WWYD

162 replies

Lakeylady · 10/05/2022 09:40

Just that really. We had an email from school on Friday saying that the children would be going on a countryside learning day in 10 days to a nearby estate. Just that, no more info. I looked up the organisation running it over the weekend and they are a charity that promotes countryside sports. As part of the day there was a farm tour which sounded ok, then a gamekeeper tour when they learn about animal traps and pest control, which I am not particularly ok about but it is legal. Final bit was a tour of the kennels. The master and whipper in of this particular hunt are being prosecuted at the moment for illegal hunting and there have been news stories about their questionable animal welfare. This I am unhappy about which I let the school know about and I also contacted the countryside sports charity and said I didn’t think primary school children should visit an organisation being investigated when it would be their staff showing them round.
The school have cancelled the visit (I only asked for them not to do the hunt kennels bit but the organisation said my child would have to stand to one side with a member of their staff) but the chair of governors has written me a letter saying I have spoilt a nice day out.
I am so upset, I feel like some of the parents will blame me for standing up for my convictions but I feel this trip would have been wrong on lots of levels let alone breaking the political impartiality code. Meanwhile we have the National Arborteum on our doorstep and we haven’t done a trip there.

OP posts:
TheLadyofShalott1 · 23/05/2022 11:06

Sorry, that I am so late to this table OP, and I am exhausted as I haven't been able to sleep yet, therefore I have unfortunately only read a small amount of this post, . But as I absolutely hate hunting I completely agree with the stance you took.

(If I were healthy and able to walk, I would be a hunt saboteur - as long as no dogs or horses were put at more risk by the sabotage than they would have been in taking part in the hunt in the first place.)

I think it is very likely that the governor who wrote you a letter is actually a hunt member, and probably of that particular hunt (maybe he even suggested it in the first place?) I also think that most of the posters who are responding to you negatively, are at the very least hunt supporters themselves.

No-one who cares about foxes being terrified into running for their lives, and being torn to pieces by the hounds when caught, or who cares about the fate of the dogs once considered past their useful hunting lives - they are usually not deemed safe enough to become domestic dogs, and certainly not for families with children or other pets, or who have other animals like cats coming into their gardens - would disagree with you here OP.

I am sure there must be something like a petting farm within travelling distance (and one that doesn't openly support any hunts), that they could visit instead, or some other nearby educational attraction that does not include being cruel to animals as one of its activities.

When I was at junior school (many years ago admittedly) I enjoyed a visit to a main post office sorting office, The Natural History Museum, the remains of a Roman Settlement, The computer room at what was then a local polytechnic - it was literally "the computer room", with one enormous computer in it, that printed out our names in Ticker Tape! Now I know that last one is very unlikely to still be found (except in maybe the Science Museum in London, which is of course another fascinating visit for anyone who lives near enough).

We also visited an amazing Planetarium, I know there is a smallish one in Bristol's Science Museum, and of course the brilliant one beside Madame Tussaud's in London, but hopefully there are more dotted around the place - I know that Yorkshire has some great museums, particularly in York, but in other parts of Yorkshire as well. We have so much heritage in the UK, but we don't seem to tend to make the most of it.

So I am sure that wherever you are OP, that the school could manage to find somewhere else to visit, or even take picnics and do a nature ramble, which could include bark rubbing, leaf identifying and drawing in a sketch pad, lifting big stones to look for insects underneath - maybe one of the teachers or volunteers could bring a portable insect viewing telescope, and the children should be taught how to gently pick up an insect, and then to return it safely to the same place when finished with.

I had better stop now, but that last one is almost free, and doesn't need booking in advance unless they are going to go a little further afield - excuse the pun please - which they would still need to book a coach for, but a lot of children enjoy a coach ride and might appreciate a small change of scenery. So what I am trying to say in a round about way OP, is that I don't think anyone has a legitimate claim that you have caused the children to miss out on an interesting and fun day out, they can still do that, as there are plenty of choices, even out in the depths of the British wilderness!

SirChenjins · 23/05/2022 11:09

CruCru · 23/05/2022 09:58

I’m not shocked by this picture. Presumably the boys in it volunteered to try this. Quite a lot of what goes on in the countryside is strange to me.

I once volunteered on a school trip to the V&A where the teacher tried on a corset.

Children will do all sorts of stupid things with a bit of persuasion from adults, as we all know. That doesn’t mean it’s right, excusable, responsible or something to turn a blind eye to.

Lakeylady · 23/05/2022 11:13

@SirChenjins completely agree. And as someone I know who is very high up in education said, it is actually mimicking pictures of slave trading so even more inappropriate. I think there are so many safeguarding questions about attaching children like this. What if one of them had fallen over? What if a horse or dog had escaped the kennels and pitched them over? I would love to see the risk assessment done for this particular activity!

OP posts:
Nothingiseverything · 23/05/2022 11:22

Omg. If you don't like the school trip don't send your child on it. Other children may have enjoyed it. They weren't going to take the children on a hunt. Would you attempt to sabotage a school trip to a bank? It is easily argued that banks are far more immoral. You have ruined the school trip.

Elsiebear90 · 23/05/2022 11:24

I might have missed it, but how do the school governors know it was you who has complained? And surely it’s not their job to send snarky letters to parents complaining about their complaints anyway? That sounds highly inappropriate.

Lakeylady · 23/05/2022 11:33

@Elsiebear90 the chair of governors was in school that day for SATS purposes apparently and discussed the trip with the head. The letter then came from the chair via email. I have kept it and am mulling over what I should do. For my child’s sake I don’t want to blow it up anymore, but I worry that the chair will be indiscreet. Actually most people seemed really glad that the trip had been cancelled so I guess we don’t live amongst so many people who support a hunt who has had endless accusations of animal cruelty and illegal hunting as I thought. So perhaps I should just leave it there and not complain about my treatment by chair.

OP posts:
EdithStourton · 23/05/2022 11:35

they are usually not deemed safe enough to become domestic dogs, and certainly not for families with children or other pets
That's not at all why hounds are hard to retire to homes. They are usually incredibly soft with people. Hound pens at country shows are always surrounded by people (including tiny children) petting the hounds. At our local one, the day ends with a hound parade, and at the end everyone is allowed into the ring to make a fuss of the hounds and beagles. A hound will be (or should be!) good around livestock and deer, hares and rabbits.

The issue with retiring hounds to homes is that they have always lived in packs, in kennels, and find it hard to adjust. I have heard of hounds who have retired successfully, though.

Lakeylady · 23/05/2022 12:50

@EdithStourton so are you happy with these sentient creatures being shot when they are are puppies because they aren’t long legged enough for the distance they will cover? Or shot age 1 because they don’t have the hunting instinct? Or shot age 5 because they are ‘past it’.

OP posts:
Lakeylady · 23/05/2022 12:56

Also @EdithStourton you seem well informed, so I presume you know about the well established practice of feeding the hounds live fox cubs to give them a taste for the hunt. How do you feel about that? Do you think the hunt staff in the article below behaved well?

TRIGGER WARNING - animal cruelty

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/evil-hunter-feeds-live-fox-16497469.amp

OP posts:
rnsaslkih · 23/05/2022 13:19

I would have phoned on the day to say my child was sick so couldn’t attend.

Getting into disagreements with school is always best avoided in my experience. No matter who is right and wrong.

Lakeylady · 23/05/2022 13:24

@rnsaslkih so you would teach a child to lie about why they were off school rather than speak your truth to a school?

OP posts:
GreySquirrrel · 23/05/2022 13:28

Thursday37 · 10/05/2022 09:46

These trips are educational and appropriate. Our local schools visit the hunt kennels in the same way they visit farms and the cattle market. They learn about the community they live in, and here the hunt is part of that community.
If you were a parent at our village school you’d be ostracised I’m afraid. You could have just kept your child at home if you didn’t want them to attend, which is perfectly within your rights. But interfering with my child is not!

‘Ostracised’ says it all really.....🙄

dragonatetheparsnips · 23/05/2022 13:35

ZarquonsSandals · 23/05/2022 09:21

Ditto.
Also the chair of governors is overstepping their authority by writing to you.
Personally would make a complaint about that too, but that's because a)I am a school governor and b) menopausal and irritable

This. Also menopausal and not giving many fucks these days

rnsaslkih · 23/05/2022 15:44

Lakeylady · 23/05/2022 13:24

@rnsaslkih so you would teach a child to lie about why they were off school rather than speak your truth to a school?

I absolutely would and have taught my children to lie about things in situations where it is necessary. They are much older (16), well behaved and honest. They just know that sometimes, in order not to cause a shitstorm, lying is the best way forwards. I have learnt that speaking the truth to schools does not usually go well. You have just experienced this, so surely you see that it's true?

Lakeylady · 23/05/2022 15:49

@rnsaslkih yes - it has affected my mental health. Would I do it differently next time - no. Why? Because I was taught to believe that change only comes when you put yourself out there and stand up for what you believe in. And I want my children to grow up in a world where there is less animal cruelty. I hope that they do the same for things they care about.

OP posts:
EdithStourton · 23/05/2022 15:51

Lakeylady · 23/05/2022 12:50

@EdithStourton so are you happy with these sentient creatures being shot when they are are puppies because they aren’t long legged enough for the distance they will cover? Or shot age 1 because they don’t have the hunting instinct? Or shot age 5 because they are ‘past it’.

@Lakeylady I think there's little point engaging with you TBH, given the way you have come after me for simply correcting the claim that foxhounds are 'too dangerous' to be rehomed as pets.

I expressed no view about the killing of hounds at the end of their careers. Personally, I would much, much prefer it if retired hounds did go into homes. Also, my understanding is that most hounds are not 'past it' at 5; if working gundogs are anything to go by, most will be well able to keep going until they're 9 or so. My older dog's sire was still in work when he was 10.

As for 'feeding the hounds live fox cubs to give them a taste for the hunt', I have no idea why a hunt kennels would need to do that, and I find it hard to believe that it's common practice. Dogs are predators, they do not need to be 'given a taste for the hunt'. I've never owned a dog that wouldn't chase a fox given the chance.

I've never hunted, by the way. I've just lived fairly rurally for most of my life.

Cherrysherbet · 23/05/2022 15:53

My child would definitely not be going. She wouldn’t want to, and I would never support fox hunting in anyway. It’s barbaric.

Honeyroar · 23/05/2022 15:59

Lakeylady I admire your morals and the fact that you did stand up about something that is quite frankly wrong.

Lakeylady · 23/05/2022 16:13

@EdithStourton Gundogs cover a tiny fraction of the ground that fox hounds do in a single day. Ring your local hunt kennels and ask them what age their oldest working dog is and let me know, I am happy to stand corrected.
You are right, there is no need to throw live fox cubs to hounds because hunts don’t hunt foxes do they, because it is against the law. They say they hunt scents.
Except they don’t, do they? Most of them don’t even pretend to lay trails.
The fox cub baiting is very common.

OP posts:
LiveatCityHall · 23/05/2022 16:18

As a school governor I can categorically tell you that the HT and the Chair are bang out of order here by discussing you by name. Whenever we have governor meetings, any issues are raised confidentially. We never know the name of the person who has raised a complaint and neither should we, that is not what we are there for. I would definitely be raising issues of confidentiality if I were you.

EdithStourton · 23/05/2022 18:40

They say they hunt scents.
Except they don’t, do they? Most of them don’t even pretend to lay trails.
As I say, I don't hunt. But I did see something by LACS or similar which showed a series of photographs, one with a quad bike 'laying a trail' down the middle of a track that ran along a hedge, and another showing the hounds running alongside the hedge (or maybe the other way round, can't remember) saying 'See, the hounds are on a real trail, not following the supposed laid trail'. But I've watched enough dogs working (gundogs) to know that when they are running, they air-scent, and those hounds were running, with their heads level to their bodies, almost certainly following a scent (probably the laid scent) lifted on the breeze.

Lakeylady · 23/05/2022 19:51

@EdithStourton your post made me snort with laughter. If you are rural and you know people who hunt you know how ridiculous it is to claim that the majority of hunts actually follow artificial trails. The court case last year about the webinar involving all the hunting ‘big wigs’ showed that it was a farcical ‘smokescreen’ in their own words. Which is why one very senior member of the hunting office was prosecuted and fined.
watch the webinar, call your local hunt and get the average age of retired hounds, then get back to me.

OP posts:
Tara336 · 23/05/2022 19:56

I wouldn't have let my DC visit a hunt kennel. I have no time for anyone who thinks that in this day and age its acceptable.

TheLadyofShalott1 · 24/05/2022 03:12

EdithStourton · 23/05/2022 11:35

they are usually not deemed safe enough to become domestic dogs, and certainly not for families with children or other pets
That's not at all why hounds are hard to retire to homes. They are usually incredibly soft with people. Hound pens at country shows are always surrounded by people (including tiny children) petting the hounds. At our local one, the day ends with a hound parade, and at the end everyone is allowed into the ring to make a fuss of the hounds and beagles. A hound will be (or should be!) good around livestock and deer, hares and rabbits.

The issue with retiring hounds to homes is that they have always lived in packs, in kennels, and find it hard to adjust. I have heard of hounds who have retired successfully, though.

Well you and I are never going to see eye to eye - probably over most things - as you are obviously at the very least, a hunt supporter, but probably actually a hunt participator too? However, who gives an owls hoot as to whether we agree or not, as long as we stay reasonably polite to each other.

I got my information (via a TV documentary), from a keeper of the hounds, at the time when the act to make hunting animals with dogs illegal, was going through it's parliamentary process.

Of course I have no idea whether he was telling us the truth or not, I think he thought that telling us how restricted even the younger hounds lives would be if the law was passed, and that he would be out of a job as well, was supposed to make the general public feel sorry for both him, and presumably the dogs. I do feel incredibly sorry and heartbroken for the dogs, IMO it should be illegal to keep them shut together in packs at all - yes they used to be pack animals, but that was a great many years ago, since then they have learned and been bred, to live with and love their human families, or 'human packs' if you prefer.

What happens then please @EdithStourton to the - majority - of them, who don't even get loving homes when they are retired - even though they are still young?

You have stated that the hunt dogs are usually soft with children, and fine with all other fast moving small creatures, like rabbits, hares, deer, and maybe even cats?
I know that some breeds of dogs can be incredibly intelligent, and some not quite so much!

But you are saying (and I am presuming here that you are being honest) that their hunting, and ripping a poor animal apart instincts, and training, would not kick in when confronted with playful children, or lovely small and furry animals, whether they are wild or pets? If you are correct, then I must admit to being very surprised at that, after all, at the end of the day they are still dogs, and dogs for that matter that were not brought up in familial situations from puppy hood, with young children and other small squeaky animals!

Suzi888 · 24/05/2022 03:20

StarDolphins · 10/05/2022 10:28

I would not be happy with this at all. There are other ‘nice days out’ that I feel more appropriate than taking kids to anywhere that is anything to do with hunting. I would take my child out of School rather than let her see hint kennels. You & the School have done the right thing imo

Well done OP. Vile ‘sport’. It’s not a sport it’s simply enjoying animal torture. Inappropriate school trip, I’d have done the same.

Those who disagree, get up off your butt and take your child there in your own time!