Are large class sizes really that important?

[LeevMarie]

Hi everyone, I'd really appreciate your input on this.

Quick backstory: I'm looking at nursery places for DS (3.5) at 2 local schools, both of which have nursery attendance as their number 1 admission criterion (aside from EHCP and LAC). Apparently, where we live, distance to school makes no difference, as they are trust schools. (. . . I'm way out of my depth here!)

I'm really struggling to separate the two - they're both good schools and have a lovely atmosphere, lots of extra-curricular activities, close to home etc.

The one that has the better Ofsted rating is larger than average for a primary and has larger class sizes. I don't know whether, in real terms, this makes much of a difference? The adult : pupil ratio is the same in both. The larger school has 1 teacher and 1 teaching assistant per class. The smaller school has teaching assistants who are deployed for certain lessons or to support particular pupils.

Is there anything to be said for choosing the option that is smaller? Has anyone found that their DC have faired better in either environment? DS is a quiet little boy and isn't very confident around other kids, but goes to a private nursery at the moment and is sociable and comfortable amongst his peers. I don't have any concerns that he won't adapt to a larger setting, I just worry about him being a bit lost or forgotten about if there are larger classes (probably totally irrational, I know).

I'd be really grateful for any help from those with some experience of this stuff - it's all so new to me and I'm struggling to make a decision!

In my opinion, yes, small class sizes make a difference. Especially at primary school level. Individual attention improves learning and confidence.

(I teach, but not at primary school level).

Larger classes are more difficult for a teacher to control and manage. So there's a possibility that a larger class will be noisier with more disruption and less time spent on learning activities.

Each child will have less one-to-one time and attention from the teacher. The teacher will have more books to mark so less time for planning lessons and activities. Potentially more stressed.

A TA is not the same. They can help with behaviour and marking etc, but they don't have the training and experience of a teacher.

I'd always say smaller class sizes is preferable.

Smaller or larger school as a whole is preference. larger schools may have more facilities. Personally I chose a smaller school for my DC and am happy. The teachers and headmistress know the kids and families, have good relationships, the playground is less crowded and less overwhelming for my DC.

Small class size every time.

How much smaller is the class? We were faced with a similar choice and went for the bigger classes. Parents mentioned it was hard in a smaller setting if friendships break as there aren't as many kids to 'fall back' on. I switched primary school as a kid, going from a smaller setting to a bigger one and did find this too
There's also no healthy ( in my eyes but I can see why some people would disagree) spirit of competition when you are guaranteed to make the school football team/ orchestra or whatever because noone else wants to do it.

Are they really sane adult: child ratio? I’m reception/ks1 it should be one teacher to 30 children. 1:30 is very different to 2:60 if one of those adults is only a TA. In that scenario go for smaller classes!! However if it’s 2:45 then I wouldn’t write off the slightly larger class with extra support? Does that make sense? I’m sure there are more things about the schools/ethos/culture to distinguish than just class sizes?

What are the sizes? Yes smaller class sizes means the teacher has more time to go round but bigger class sizes means more funding. This obviously goes on more TA time, which is helpful to balance the numbers, but also may be used for wider things e.g. extra-curriculars, resources.

There is a benefit to a constant TA. It means the children get to know them and the teacher always has a second pair of hands. This means the TA can, for example, focus more attention on the lower ability group. When you say the same ratios, is this across the school, or is the class double the size? That makes a difference.

Class sizes are the single biggest thing that affects outcomes in a school setting.

It is why the government did not want to go to half in/half out in schools - they would have shown that a child learns very fast in a class of 12 or 15. Then we would have been pissed off to go back to 30!

Small class sizes - for students of all ages - make a massive difference. This is one of the reasons why people pay for private education.

Larger classes are noisier and quiet children are in danger of being swamped and overlooked. The middle band lose out the most. Bright children will thrive anyway, but are often able to get attention because they are a delight to teach. The disruptive get lots of teacher time. The steady, middle band children often go without the support they need to push them along. It's not the fault of the teacher - there is only so much one person can do. And whilst I am in no way dismissing many, many great TAs who make a massive difference, there are aldo a lot of TAs out there who are not so great. It is the teacher: student ratio that is essential.

What are the class sizes in question? There is a big difference between 10 pupils small and 20 pupil small.

Research (eef so usually good quality - you can check their website for sources and confidence in the conclusion) show that, perhaps surprisingly, small class sizes are not well correlated to improved outcomes in primary.

This may be linked to indirect effects - lower funding, the location of schools with small classes, the tendency for parents to seek out small schools /classes for children with sen meaning these are over -represented.

I’m surprised by a ‘nursery class attendance’ priority for admissions, though. Iirc (though it’s a while since I looked it up) it’s specifically against the Admissions Code as it discriminates against children of full time working parents who use day nurseries with longer hours?

Friends.
Extra curricular.
Funding.

Though rather depends on what you mean by large or small.

I agree with PPs, the important thing is how small is small?

Very small and a quiet child will be happy until, say, year 3. Then the lack of enough kids to go round for friendships kicks in. Bigger issue than you may think, especially if they are a bit 'quirky'.

Also funding and resources are greater, and facilities better, in a larger school. If your boy needs extra help further down the line, he's likely to have better access in a larger school.

But also, like PP said, the steady middle ground children can get overlooked.

Thing is, you'll never know if the other option would have been better. Go with your instinct when visiting the school, I'd say.

Remember, if looking at a primary, you want a school that will suit your confident outgoing sporty 11yo s well as you quiet timid 3 year old.

Some people on MN view a two form entry primary as large, some view it as small. Depends on where you are looking from.

As others have said, how small is small? Some local schools are very rural and only have 30 pupils split between KS1 and KS2. Other schools are single form entry and have about 20 pupils per class, other schools have full classes. If all the schools are similar in other ways and have a good feel about them I would go with the middle ground in the above scenario.

On actual class size for teaching, I have the impression 24 is quite a good number. Any smaller and it is hard to get discussions going and friendship issues can dominate. DD1 was in a class of 17 and if 2 pupils fell out then it impacted all of them.

Thanks everyone for the replies - that's really helped me to consider the options.

Sorry, I should've added some figures - the smaller school is anticipating 23 kids per class, the Head at the larger school said that they are oversubscribed and therefore will likely reach 30 kids in each class.

@icklekid sorry - I'd just completed a late shift when I wrote this post and I messed up with my maths! 😅They're not the same ratios. Smaller school has 1 teacher to circa 23 kids with TA support, albeit not consistently. Large school has 1 teacher to circa 30 kids with dedicated TA to each class.

@cantkeepawayforever brilliant advice - thanks very much. I'll look up the resource you mentioned. Regarding the admissions criteria - I was surprised by this, too. It's even listed in the school prospectus that attendance at the nursery is a key component for admission to the school. It is an academy school - don't know if that makes a difference. I agree, though. DH and I are both working fulltime and it is going to be a significant headache for us to have term time only nursery provision.

@stickygotstuck hit the nail on the head - the larger one has the better facilities (Forest School, access to outdoor space, links with local community groups). This is the essence of the dilemma, really. Also, he IS very quirky, in his own quiet way. I was pretty similar as a kid and felt pretty lost in a large setting where I faded into the background a little.

Thanks again everyone for the replies. As I said, this is all so new to me and a little daunting, so I really appreciate all the help!

I think simply from what you have posted I would be ending towards the bigger one with better facilities and more support staff.

As a teacher I personally would opt for the smaller size. I have worked in both settings and I find that smaller schools have a better ethos and a real family vibe. Having great resources are all things schools like to boast about and often go all out to get the accreditation but then don’t continue on the same level. Also knowing if they are used appropriately is another it’s easy to step up when you are being assessed. Smaller sizes also mean more teacher time to help reinforce any concepts they may find difficult. It also means more teacher time in general when the children are on task and they are walking around to check on them. You mentioned your son is quiet. In a smaller setting he may feel more comfortable and not be overwhelmed by the big personalities. However you can’t know this until he meets his peers. At the end of the day children are resilient and whatever decision you make will be right for you and your family. It will be what he knows from day one and he will be happy! I was incredibly nervous about my daughter starting school for various reasons and she has thrived. Good luck x

23 is great if they can sustain it. The worry would be that because the funding is based on classes of 30 they can't and they will either have to cut back on TAs or merge classes (fine if that's what you signed up to - my kids went to a 15 entry primary knowing that mixed classes were the rule).

30 kids per class with at TA all the time is fine. As a previous poster mentioned, research has shown that smaller classes don't make a real difference to outcomes. Larger schools in general have better funding and more opportunities. If the academic outcomes are also better and it oversubscribed and hence popular with parents, it seems like an obvious choice.

It depends on child personality too, if your child is worn out from noise or busy-ness you want the smaller class, if they love noise, lack of structure, a busy playground and will want to do tonnes of extra curriculars go for the bigger one.

But it seems obvious to me that a smaller class means more attention from the teacher and a less stressed teacher - we've done both, and my dc were much happier in smaller classes.

Hmm. I have read the 2021 Admissions Code and it looks as if there is less wording relating to admission priority given to school nursery than before.

@admission Is giving priority to children attending the nursery of a school now absolutely fine?

Like others I am really surprised re the nursery admission priority and the Admissions Code.

I would go for 30 pupil classes of your choices. 23/24 pupils in a class is a lot of funding that school isn't getting!

It depends on the child. The children who benefit most from small class sizes are those who are average academically. The cleverest and the ones who need the most help usually get the most attention in a big class ime.

I went to a small school (year group of 15!) in a village. It was nice in some ways but awful if you fell out. It felt like falling out with the whole year at once and there was no where to hide or anyone new to play with. My DC go to a huge school (3 form intake) and seeing them dashing about with loads of friends from different classes makes my heart sing! Academically I don’t think it makes a huge difference unless there are really disruptive children