Are large class sizes really that important?

[LeevMarie]

Hi everyone, I'd really appreciate your input on this.

Quick backstory: I'm looking at nursery places for DS (3.5) at 2 local schools, both of which have nursery attendance as their number 1 admission criterion (aside from EHCP and LAC). Apparently, where we live, distance to school makes no difference, as they are trust schools. (. . . I'm way out of my depth here!)

I'm really struggling to separate the two - they're both good schools and have a lovely atmosphere, lots of extra-curricular activities, close to home etc.

The one that has the better Ofsted rating is larger than average for a primary and has larger class sizes. I don't know whether, in real terms, this makes much of a difference? The adult : pupil ratio is the same in both. The larger school has 1 teacher and 1 teaching assistant per class. The smaller school has teaching assistants who are deployed for certain lessons or to support particular pupils.

Is there anything to be said for choosing the option that is smaller? Has anyone found that their DC have faired better in either environment? DS is a quiet little boy and isn't very confident around other kids, but goes to a private nursery at the moment and is sociable and comfortable amongst his peers. I don't have any concerns that he won't adapt to a larger setting, I just worry about him being a bit lost or forgotten about if there are larger classes (probably totally irrational, I know).

I'd be really grateful for any help from those with some experience of this stuff - it's all so new to me and I'm struggling to make a decision!

I teach at a 2 form oversubscribed school. While it is busier overall, there are many positives. Our school has a larger admin team so one member of staff deals with budget, another paperwork and another supports families and admissions.

In the classroom, in my school atleast, there's a teacher and TA in each class and an HLTA for each phase to cover PPA, and to do targeted intervention. We also have a few members of staff who gave been hired exclusively to run interventions and enrichment activities. One positive I see from this is that pupils of all abilities often get paired up with pupils from other classes for targeted groupwork. @MondaysChild7 makes a good point that children above or below expected are often identified and schools have the resources to support them.

Is it single form entry for both?
Personally I always think that the feel and ethos of a school is more important than anything.
Are they welcoming and helpful? What do they offer in terms of settling and transition? What did you think about the head and values of the school? These are the things that truly make a difference in primary. Fancy resources etc are nice but mean nothing if it’s not a happy place to be.

My ds is moving to a different, smaller primary school (2 form entry, 23 per class) in September for the start of year one, there were several reasons for this, one was that at his current 3 form entry primary school there are 30 children in each class, even with one teacher and two TAs I was told at parents evening they didn't have the capacity to do as much one on one work and observations as there were so many interventions and just a lot going on across all classes so there were rarely the 3 allocated staff members in the class. My ds has never really settled and whilst it has lots of great facilities it just isn't the right school for our children.

To add, on the topic of admissions, his current school also prioritise children in their nursery for reception entrance - it isn't common in my area but somehow they have an agreement in place between the academy and the council that guarantees all nursery children a reception place if they apply.

I'd go for the school that will meet his needs now. You can always change later. DD3 went to 2 form entry for year R, a ½ form entry from years 1-Easter of year 4 and a 2 form entry from Easter of year 4-6. The change in year 1 was a necessity and the change in year 4 was her choice because she needed a wider friendship group. She's now year 8 and knows kids from all 3 schools and is doing great.

I would go for the larger school with the dedicated TA in each class, the great facilities, forest school.

A lot depends on the quality of the TA of course, but having two pairs of hands and eyes per class makes a difference. It narrows down the adult:child ratio considerably.

I would say the experience of those reporting on school experience from the last few years may be clouded by covid.

Covid and schools closing meant that many children required academic and even behavioural intervention when schools reopened.

The cohort entering now has not had interruptions in phonics and arithmetic that kids now aged 6-9 have experienced. Intervention levels will return to normal.

I'm really surprised small classes are viable long term. Our school is slightly under the 30 as was a low birth year, but has a 4 form intake each year and has taken in year applications.

Of course a smaller class is better hence private schools. But often small classes become mixed age ones which I don't think works as well.

Quality over class size in my opinion. Are the classes large as the school is oversubscribed because it's good? That's the case in the school I teach at. The standards are very high so the classes are large as parents are keen to get their kids in there. It's worth putting up with a bigger class if it's a great school.

You know your child - mine were at a school with two classes of 30 per year group and it was too much for DD2 in particular who was being lost and quite distressed by some of the behaviour that was going on. We moved them and she's now in a class which has 22 in it from two year groups I think and she's much more settled, the class teacher notices her now (she's quiet and incredibly compliant because that's how her ASD manifests) and her confidence has shot up in terms of being a bigger fish in a smaller pond. It's been less positive for my other child who has a very big personality so wasn't getting lost in the same way, but the size meaning all the staff know her and know her well is starting to pay dividends now.

In our case the school is a church school and physically can't expand its intake much because of limitations on the building (it's listed as one of the most historic school buildings in the area) and the site is very enclosed so putting up a new building doesn't really work either. I knew my kids though and knew DD2 in particular would benefit from the drop down in class sizes.

Although placid and very eager to please - DD2 also has a massive bone-idle streak and she can't hide below the surface doing naff all work anymore too!

Have you been able to visit either school? What's the atmosphere like at break time and can you see your DC fitting in? Are before and after school facilities the same at both, as that could be a deal breaker.

My DC are in a small school, both are thriving in it. It's things like DC1 had a big part in the Nativity, which I can't see him doing in a bigger school - not least because the much larger crowd of parents watching would completely intimidate him. Things like school trips are less intimidating for him as the group size going is smaller, lunches aren't as noisy / bustling because the number of children in the hall is less. Having moved school part way through year 1 I'd actually focus on getting the choice that feels best for the first 3 years of school, you can always go on the wait list to move schools if it turns out subsequently that something different would be better for the last few years.

Children want very different things when they are 10 as opposed to when they are 4. They probably relish trips at 10 and want a bigger choice of friends and activities.

No one has mentioned this: the biggest difference to process at school is high quality teaching. Class size makes little difference. Poor teaching of 24 DC is not going to have great outcomes. Great teaching of 30 DC will lead to great progress by the majority. A well trained and effective TA working with a teacher as a team will be far more effective than poor teaching and a poorly directed TA.

Therefore I would look at other aspects of the schools and very much what the KS2 looks like for older DC.

@admission
Can schools admit from their own nursery as the main criteria (EHCP and looked after a one obviously). This does seem unfair to local DC who have not been able to attend the nursery for various reasons). Eg have to go to childminders, workplace nursery etc.

Progress at school (not process!)

Research shows the biggest thing a primary can do to improve attainment is reduce claw size. Having taught classes over 30 and 20, the quality of teaching for a class of 20 is massively better. I'd hate to go back to teaching big classes.

Obviously quality first teaching is important but the fact that class size doesn't matter isn't true - research shows it does. It is just too expensive for most schools to implement.

educationendowmentfoundation.org.uk/education-evidence/teaching-learning-toolkit/reducing-class-size

This body's research shows when you can reduce class sizes below 20 it allows for greater flexibility in teaching style and is particularly beneficial in younger year groups. However, as I stated, it is expensive (prohibitively so for the level impact it has for most schools).

23 kids per class means the school is missing out on quite a bit of funding, which will impact all of them then? Funding tends to assume 30 kids per class.

Mine started out at a 60 kids per year school which was great - Reception were all in one big room with 2 teachers and 4 TAs which effectively meant a 1:10 ratio so lots of support. It was quite loud in there(!) but the facilities were lovely - forest school etc. We had looked round a 90 entry school which had 90 kids in one Reception space with 3 teachers and 4TAs but it felt a lot more overwhelming.

Following a relocation DD's now at a 45 kids per year school but they are in mixed year groups of 30. Hers is a mix of year 1 and 2. This also works well - 1 teacher and 1 TA per class.

It's also worth asking how they cover PPA time? So the 60 kids per year school the PPA time seemed to be covered within Reception (as there were 2 teachers and 4 TAs).

At the 45 kids per year school they have specialist art and PE teachers who have each class for half a day per week to cover the PPA time. They have done some amazing stuff in this time!