Primary Maths and English- state vs private

[ConfusedaboutSchool]

My DD is at an academically selective private school in Reception. We also have a younger daughter and I'm debating if its worth putting my second in from reception or instead to wait for the 7+ and save £60k.

We have outstanding state primaries we could get into but without having used them I don't know if my daughter could get the same level of extension in the state system. While my second is still young, she seems just as able as my first.

The reception class as a whole will cover the Reception and the Year 1 curriculum by the end of this academic year. However my daughter gets additional extension in school as follows since the start of this term:

1. She's completed the reading scheme (up to lime / band 11) and is now a free reader
2. She is doing year 2 spellings and some year 2 grammar
3. For math she is working with numbers up to 100 and is learning mental math techniques like bridging to 10

In her class, particularly for maths, she has at least 3 other children doing the same extension work with her who she can work with.

For those of you with able children in state school, is this level of extension ever be feasible? She loves what she's learning and loves school and its the exact right academic pace for her. Still part of me wonders if our state schools could offer the same and I'm making a silly assumption thinking they can't and wasting money. There are other benefits like forest school, french, music lessons etc but before age 7 that alone wouldn't be worth it to me if she could get the same academic work in the state system.

Thanks for any insight you can share

I have an academic DD in year 1 at an outstanding state school. (Ofsted late 2019 so fairly recent.) She is currently working on year 2 spellings. (They only started spellings in Jan this year due to a more gradual transition to year 1 due to COVID). She has been on gold band since Sept and the teacher is not moving her on due to the phonics sounds in the books she wants her to keep practicing. I don't think anyone is beyond this. They have ability groups for phonics across the year. All of this is fairly easy for her.

In maths they have extension tasks including some with higher numbers (definitely to 50, possibly to 100). Bridging 10 has been taught to the class fairly recently. The focus is on sideways stretch.

She works with 4-5 other children of a similar level, although I think she finds lots of the work easier than others on her table. So in summary my year 1 seems to be being taught what your Reception child is getting. I think my DD could have been accelerated through the work quicker, particularly in Reception, but that's not how the school operates. The focus in Reception was very much learning through play as per the EYFS. I think this is common in many state schools. I think if you want the acceleration you describe, you probably need private, but no harm in asking the schools those questions.

You would certainly be extended to the limit of what you could read at my DC's state school. And would be encouraged to ever improve your writing. Not sure about maths.

One question to ask yourself is what happens in later years? If she's already working at Year 2 level or beyond then will she continue to be stretched up the school (whichever school)? My DB and SIL had an unfortunate experience with their private school where, having pushed their son to working 2 years ahead of his age group in maths, he then had to repeat the work twice as he hit the limit of what they would cover in pre-prep.

From your post, you’d be crazy to expect anything like that academically in even outstanding state primaries.

If that’s how academic your chosen private school is, I think sending a child in at 7+ would be cruel as they’d already be so far behind their class.

My son’s school is academic (and outstanding) and reception are nowhere near that level. There’s a few getting towards yellow book band books I believe, which is good going for a state school at this point of the year.

If you’re set on private at 7+, there’s no point bothering with state til then, especially if the older sibling already has had the benefit of going “through” - if academics are important to you, I expect that you would very quickly be underwhelmed by even the best state options.

This is not meant to be state school bashing at all, but probably more that you have unrealistic expectations!

Stay private.
My eldest was bright.
Not even assessed in reception so they didnt know she could blend going in. Had to read the same books as everyone else.
She was band 11/ free reader ability by end of reception - age 5.0yo but that was all work at home. Basically you do all of the practise. She was also then behind in maths despite being bright. Most of the other kids were free reading during y2.
Generally not stretched in English and now y4.
Then there's all the lockdowns and time off with covid.
Our school had no online during first lockdown and even during second there was only 40 min a day and that wasn't actually teaching it was practice. So we had to do all teaching. For covid illness school havent been automatically sending work out, im not even sure they have any ready. Now for the storm 0 work. 0 online. Just use online maths... Which im shocked about as it should be ready. And they are not teaching as no kids in today.
Then there are the weeks before xmas or Easter etc a whole week doing no work all day watching films.
There is forest school but that is instead of pe so the kids only have pe once a week. My older kid hardly gets to go anyway. They pick teams and favourites for everything and if it's not your kid you dont even know it is going on.

Child 2 during lockdowns was only set art or watching oak academy.
Having issues where due to lockdowns where we got 0 books we arent where we should be.
The assessments on reading is only at most half termly. And due to ofsted we are having to read books multiple times.

And your kid will very likely catch covid due to class sizes and no measures.

Thanks everyone.

I didn't think state schools would be able to do the same but I wanted to check that assumption was fair.

It feels like a good state school can accelerate the most able by about a year at this age whereas 1 year acceleration is standard at my DD's school with two years acceleration for the most able. It would probably only be worth it if my youngest is as academic as my first.

@BendingSpoons Reception at the school is still very play based which is important to me. It's full of toys, a home corner, and multiple playground breaks during the day plus forest school. I did ask though how they can get through so much as it seems a lot.

@RedskyThisNight Its actually a through school and so too much acceleration isn't an issue as they manage it through their gifted and talented programme throughout.

I don’t entirely agree that state schools cannot educate bright children. In my DDs class at primary, 4 were offered places at Oxbridge eventually. There was no suggestion that the state couldn’t educate them. One went to Cambridge for maths.

I think there’s a complete misunderstanding of how the curriculum is taught in state schools here. The whole emphasis is on lateral extension. So with maths, the basic concept is taught and then the topic gets deeper and deeper for the brightest. So using bigger numbers. Exploring more complex computations. With reading, there’s a whole raft of books. I’ve seen 5 year olds reading paragraph books but are still provided for in a state school. I tend to think phonics is boring for DC who get it all quickly but you, as a parent, can extend reading by miles by going to a library! Far better than finishing a narrow reading scheme and ticking boxes. We used to get poetry books, non fiction and all sorts of books from the school library too.

You can also get going on music, sport, dance and enhance DCs general knowledge. It’s not difficult. We found more than enough bright DC in our state schools and, having been a governor recently, I am absolutely certain state schools can stretch able DC. Recently a DD from our school got into Wycombe Abbey. If you go to a good school with a policy that extends the curriculum and has the quality of teachers to carry it out, I don’t see how DC are failed. You should think along the lines of lateral extension work, not just jumping through hoops in the y1, y2 curriculum because schools simply don’t do that any more. You teach for breadth and deeper understanding. We had hard, harder, hardest and Herculean work for children as standard.

I would chat to the state schools before you dismiss them. They might even have bright children too.

@HSHorror sorry, that sound dreadful. My DD's school has PE 3 times a week plus Forest School in addition to multiple times out on the playground a day. Physical activity actual improves learning so I'm always sad to hear when schools cut back on this as its critical.

DD was past lime band and free reading in Reception at a state school; DS was in Year 1. (Only 2 schools years between them and she wanted to learn to read when her DB did!) Because of their advanced reading, they didn't ever feel challenged in the weekly spellings (but the school did differentiate). It did always feel like the maths they were doing at school was things they had been able to for ages, but the school believed in 'mastery' and that it wasn't beneficial to move them on quickly.

It seems to have worked out well. One is at a (and another one starting in September) super-selective grammar school and doing better academically than their peers who went to independent primary schools. However, at Junior school they did start to get bored with the repetition. They were allowed to do the Year 5 and 6 spellings in Year 3 for example, but got them all right, and then just had to keep doing them each year. I was worried about them coasting and never feeling like they had to work for anything. So they learnt instruments etc, and then 11+ prep in Year 5 helped with feeling challenged and rewarding effort too.

Very able young children aren't all that rare; most state schools have come across them. But some state schools will handle it better than others, so I'd look into the individual schools.

I think if you send your younger DD to state you will be forever thinking they aren't getting what older DD got in private. If your private school selected at 4+ then they will probably have also weeded out any children with any SEN...

@TizerorFizz I should say, I know there are loads of bright children at state school. I went to state school and then to Oxford. I'm constantly questioning if I'm getting caught up or if there is a real benefit.

I think there is a difference in the pace of learning and less repetition which always for a broader experience during the school day. I remember primary school being dreary and under performing until I was put into higher sets in secondary.

Of course though you can do well with parental support irrespective of sector. It's perhaps just more work for all involved.

@TeenPlusCat the school doesn't weed out anyone. I know multiple children with SEN in the secondary who started at 4 and there is even a child with an EHCP.

At the start of term the Head Teacher explicitly said, even though your children are very bright and passed the assessment etc about 10% will have an SEN like dyslexia and then went on to talk about the learning support department. The proportion with SEN in the senior school is something like 15%. I really hate the concept of culling as it shows a school is only focused on its league table position.

@ConfusedaboutSchool
You are not at primary school now. I can assure you that times have changed. I doubt anyone bothered too much about assessing your progress 25 years ago (?). Or even differentiating work much. Teachers really do need to make sure every child does their best. I also know state schools don’t see truly bright children very often but if they do, they know what to do.

A friend’s DS’s did do maths with an older group but nothing else. They kept their roots in the own cohort. They both went to Cambridge. Half the problem is making sure DC get teachers who can broaden the topic. I don’t think private schools are necessarily better at this. They just tend to push upwards and sometimes their teaching isn’t wonderful because children don’t cover the most difficult work in a topic. They just go into another one.

If there is a selective check at age 4 they will be weeding out a bunch of children who would make teaching harder. Maybe not the ones with dyslexia which won't show until later, but ones with eg poor motor skills, poor speech, less ability to concentrate etc. So they may still have children with SEN but it will be the 'right sort' of SEN.

@TeenPlusCat the school is selective but that's completely different than kicking kids out which is what I was responding to...

@TizerorFizz I don't think the teachers are better in private school. I know people who have taught in both. The teaching is just faster as the entire cohort is more advanced. Even with all the assessments in the world, the amount of repetition the average child needs is just more which squeezes out a lot of other opportunities from the typical school day I think. It's not the end of the world but I can't see that it would be the same.

I really don't think private school is the be all and end all though. I question my decision all the time.

@TeenPlusCat I didn't mean to add the .... !

I agree that the intake will be more able and suffer from less serious learning differences than average.

Most of my kids went to state and then selective independent or superselective grammar. 1 went to a supposedly selective independent from year 3 and back into grammar after that. In the long run, I really don’t see any difference. I really don’t think it matters if you do spellings 2 years ahead in year 1. Good readers tend to spell well, clever kids are clever, regardless of what school they go to.
I sent one to the selective independent due to her extra curricular talents plus strong academics which I can’t keep up with whilst working at the same time. It is easiest if she does all her music and sports there and they teach off curriculum which suits her.
Thing is though it all depends on your secondary options and logistics too and having both kids in the same school can help the whole family dynamics.

Ah. By weeded out I only meant at the selection stage, not once they are in. Though I do know many private schools do that too, by suggesting that 'the child might be better suited to a different school'.

I do think though that it does absolutely impact the experience of your child. I think it has the possibility of making quite an impact on your DD2. With state being open to all it is luck of the draw whether your DD would end up in a class with 0 or 5 children with behaviour needs or needing learning support whilst not having an EHCP.

I think having not had that for your DD1 you could feel DD2 was getting a very different experience.

@ConfusedaboutSchool
The whole cohort in independent schools are absolutely not more advanced than children in state schools. My DD2 went to a top prep for girls. Lots of scholarships to top schools. We’re they all better educated than DD1 who was at a state school all the way through? Not entirely. Some very bright DDs did what bright ones do. Go to the best senior schools with scholarships. And the rest? Nothing special and absolutely not more advanced.

My DD at the prep had a much longer day! I agree more subjects were taught and a lot more sport was offered. This to me was the main difference. DD2 got more enrichment at school but no, the girls there were not brighter then their state school compatriots and they certainly were not accelerated through the curriculum. 25% were the scholarship group but that left the others as pretty normal. However this school famously doesn’t select and is all the better for it.

I think other posters/OP have covered a lot of what I was getting towards - a child won’t be held back in state if they are “cleverer” than they “should” be for their age, but you are much less likely to have a bunch of kids that have the same academically focussed parents to have multiple kids within a cohort that are exceeding expectations by such a margin as you suggest the litigate school mentioned is.

A bright kid anywhere can exceed, but it may be easier/give different opportunities if content is covered quicker in a private school.

If DD2 didn’t perform as well as DD1, would you always be questioning whether it was the early years of schooling that were the key factor in this? If so, private all the way.

Why the rush though?

I wouldn’t m or a 7 year old to such an environment as you describe if they haven’t started there from 4, they may be totally behind and this will impact their self confidence majorly. They may not even get in

@Adastraperaspera for me that's really it as I work too. I think it's easier for all of us and maybe more enjoyable for her.

We can afford it but is that really worth £20k a year each?! I worry I'm doing it because I can afford to and will feel bad if I didn't rather than because its actually worth it.

I have loads of friends using the state schools. Our local secondary is also outstanding and is one of the top comprehensives in the country and sends kids to top schools too. We are probably just out of catchment but could afford to move in catchment for about the same as the fees at secondary so we might switch then as well.

It would be terrible to not offer your second child the same opportunity.
It sounds as though you rate the school and can afford it.
If what you say is true about the school, if she doesn't go there then she'll be a huge disadvantage.

Plus they absolutely have weeded out the "difficult" kids. Im willing to bet there are very few of those in that school.

@TizerorFizz I'm not talking about private school in general but my DD's private school. The cohort is a lot more advanced than average as the school is very selective.

@OnceuponaRainbow18 - there is no rush. I'm just asking if the right level of differentiation can be provided in state schools or if its constrained. Every child benefits from being taught at the appropriate level for a variety of reasons which is why state schools also differentiate learning, even if its to a lesser extent.

To everyone saying my other DD would be at a huge disadvantage joining at 7, I don't understand.

You've all said, state school accelerates bright kids by about a year at this age. My DD's school is one year ahead of the national curriculum for the entire class.

Its my DD and a few others that get further differentiation to advances them a bit further. So if she's bright and at a good state primary she shouldn't be behind the general class unless I'm missing something.

Any, there is no guarantee my other DD will get in at 4 or 7. There are 10 applicants per place.

If it is eg a competitive North London through school and you have a career and you have 2 girls and both can go all the way through with no extra house moves and 11 plus hassle for you and the whole family and you can easily afford it, I think it is worth it. For your peace of mind and to focus on your career etc. It is so hard fitting in extra curricular music and sports if you are working full time.
However, I think you should make a decision, stick with it and stop questioning it because even in a great private school there will be ups and downs, some not great teachers, friendship issues etc.
In reality, your DDs and you sound bright and would be fine in outstanding state schools, but if you can afford it and it helps your career and mental healthy, then I personally think it is worth the investment. However, you need to believe that and embrace that.