Ken Prep Vs Putney High Juniors

[Rainbows18]

We are very lucky , my DD was offered a places in Ken Prep and PHS. My daughter is rather shy and sensitive but extremely curious and loves to be challenged. The fact that PHS is going is all through is very appealing, but I think Ken Prep seems very strong academically and the school is smaller, fwd thinking and creative.
I would very grateful for any advice and thoughts. Thank you.

I think it's very important to get views from people who attended these schools.
I am aware that there are families who are ecstatically happy with KPS.
But I assure you the moment I arrived ( all enthusiastic and raring to go) parents were putting a downer on the school. It took until year 5 to understand.
Some of the late joiners did very well there and some of the families who'd been there since reception were unhappy and some have pulled out siblings.
Don't accept a place without knowing the pitfalls.
Another advice for KPS parents is do apply to SPGS regardless of whether you think it will be right for her. That way she will get prep that will help for the lower tier school.
The boarding school girls also will get a specific type of prep.
Getting ignored at a school doesn't come down to luck I'm afraid. It's neglect.

Also ask about pastoral care as it's very important they nail this in such a highly pressured school.

Also ask about their attitude to tutoring. Is it frowned upon and strongly discouraged? Will a child who doesn't receive extra tutoring be left behind?

You want to know these things before you accept a place and see if you will make the most of it.
Best wishes!

[quote SouthLondonMommy]@jsku what do you see as the benefit of going to SPGS versus Putney High, really?

A child who could gain entry to both will do academically very well in either and have exposure to a similar breadth of co-curricular opportunities. SPGS is more selective but any top school (like Putney) can support a bright child achieve their full potential.

I think league tables and the associated desire for prestige drives a lot of decision making more so than any true benefit for the children.[/quote]
A good friend has DDs at both SPGS and PHS, one year apart. He asserts that at SPGS, for math and physics, at least, the syllabi are somewhat broader and substantially deeper than at PHS. His belief is that the teachers at SPGS can and do have higher expectations for entire cohort and set their lessons accordingly. So a bright enough child will need co-curricular activity at PHS to achieve the same amount as the standard curriculum at SPGS, and they may or may not get that in all subjects.

Thanks everyone for your perspectives and views. It’s definitely been really interesting hearing everyones experiences particularly from all the parents who had / have children at KP and PH. We have decided to go with our gut feeling where we think we see our DD happiest and hopefully make the right decision for her. Thanks again everyone.

I have girls at PH, feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions.

@user149799568 There are girls as talented as those at SPGS in most academic schools.

Schools that are highly selective like Putney but with a slightly broader ability range tend to run classes like maths in sets. A girl in the top set would have a similar depth and pace for the curriculum as a child at SPGS I imagine. Your friends experience might reflect which set their daughter is in.

I’m not saying there aren’t academic differences between schools but the idea that a super bright child can’t live up to their academic potential at a highly selective school like Putney is absurd.

Once your in a very good school, achievement is down largely to ability, effort and parental support.

Choose based on where your child would be happiest and what works for you as a family logistically.

Totally agree with @LondonGirl83, this is also evidenced by the fact that girls from Francis Holland or Putney High move on to Westminster School for Sixth Form regularly. It does not mean they are exactly the same in terms of peer group and curriculum, I would agree with that, but they do take care of their academic scholars and challenge them appropriately.

@LondonGirl83 my friend knows exactly which math and science sets his girls are in. While you may imagine that a girl in the top set would have a similar depth and pace for the curriculum as a child at SPGS, he disagrees. And I place more value in his opinion than in yours.

I never said that a bright girl can't achieve the same academic results at a school like Putney High as at SPGS. But a bright girl who is not the most motivated will be able to coast more easily at a school like Putney High than at SPGS. And the ones who are sufficiently motivated will have to put in more effort, extend themselves outside of class hours, because their lessons in the classroom are pitched at a different level.

@user149799568. If your friend’s daughter is in the top math set at Putney then fine. My point was a general one about top schools as the OP isn’t actually choosing between SPGS and Putney!

Various posters have suggested a selective school like Putney is an academically limiting choice which is pretty absurd. It’s one of the top 10-15 girls schools in the country. Statistically, the different results (which aren’t that substantial) are reflective primarily on the slightly broader intake when you drill down in the data.

The preoccupation with certain schools is in no small part down to chasing prestige which is fine if it’s also the right fit for your child holistically. But it’s worth recognising it for what it is.

@LondonGirl83

There are girls as talented as those at SPGS in most academic schools.

My friend would absolutely agree with that. When his DD at PHS didn't get the SPGS interview, the feedback he got was that it was her English that let her down, not math or comprehension. As she'd only been in the UK for a couple of years at that time, that doesn't say much about her academic ability.

Once your [sic] in a very good school, achievement is down largely to ability, effort and parental support.

He would also agree with that. He thinks that his DD at PHS has as much academic ability as his DD at SPGS and is working with her so that she achieves as much at math and physics (he has a PhD in Physics). But the point is that he has to spend resources and his DD has to spend extra time to achieve the same results, resources and time which they could be using on other things.

Various posters have suggested a selective school like Putney is an academically limiting choice

I don't believe that I was one of them. However, I do suggest that the extra time and effort an able child needs to spend to reach the same academic achievement may require sacrifices in other areas.

The preoccupation with certain schools is in no small part down to chasing prestige which is fine if it’s also the right fit for your child holistically. But it’s worth recognising it for what it is.

It's also worth recognizing that, beyond the bragging rights, the more academic school can be the better choice for a child with the right ability and interest. And it's sour grapes to deny that just because many such children don't get places.

@user149799568

I don’t have sour grapes and I’m not a Putney High parent.

I genuinely don’t think the top set at a
selective school has a very different academic experience regarding teaching etc than at the most selective schools. I’ve coldly looked at the data and spoken to lots of other parents who are through the other side of secondary schooling.

My kids are too young for secondary if you look at my other posts so I’m fairly unbiased in my opinion.

I was state educated in the US and went to an Ivy League university and then got an Oxbridge masters so I’m fairly sceptical about a lot of the hype in general around private schools.

Pointing out some parents are attracted by prestige more than any real benefit to their kids might be hard to hear but dismissing it as sour grapes is churlish. Even the former head of SPGS has said as much in the past…

@LondonGirl83

I genuinely don’t think the top set at a selective school has a very different academic experience regarding teaching etc than at the most selective schools. I’ve coldly looked at the data and spoken to lots of other parents who are through the other side of secondary schooling.

May I ask what data?

I don't have a girl at SPGS, but I know a half-dozen parents who have DDs at both SPGS and other schools (that's in addition to the one I detailed above), and they all believe that the math provision, at least, is much stronger at SPGS than at the other schools of which they have first hand knowledge. As an aside, I know more parents who have DDs and DSs in single-sex London day schools and they mostly believe that the math provision in all-boys schools is stronger than in all-girls schools. And, before you ask, they all know which math sets their DC are in.

I also was state educated in the US and went to top 3 schools for both undergraduate and graduate so I'm not particularly wowed by the SPGS girls or Westminster boys that I know. I also believe that the actual quality of teachers at the "top" schools, whether private or state, e.g., HBS or QE, is nothing special. But I do believe that the differences between the academic ability of the cohorts can lead to meaning differences in the syllabi and tangible benefits for suitable students.

And, I'm sorry to say, while PHS may be one of the top 10-15 girls schools in the country, it's not even in the second tier academically in West London. That would be the likes of G&LS. If you've spoken with parents who have DDs in both SPGS and PHS (for example), then we must move in very different circles, with parents with very different values, to have come to such different conclusions.

Oh good grief

My main take from this tread is that the OP would be better off choosing PHS if only to avoid a certain type of parent more prevalent at Ken Prep.
All this first tier / second tier talk is so ridiculous and quite frankly teaching Phd level physics is not really want you need to think about when choosing a reception place.

Apologies for typos - I’m not sure if my school was top tier or not…

My thought exactly.
Life's too short for this nonsense

@mrspotatohedz

My main take from this tread is that the OP would be better off choosing PHS if only to avoid a certain type of parent more prevalent at Ken Prep. All this first tier / second tier talk is so ridiculous and quite frankly teaching Phd level physics is not really want you need to think about when choosing a reception place.

@user149799568

Using the average cat scores for admission on which GCSE predictions are made nationally and then the published progress data and value add scores for GCSEs to A-level available on the government’s website.

The rest of your post essentially proves my other point quite nicely…

@mrspotatohedz you are not wrong…

Google what the former head of SPGS said about the parents at her school while she was still headmistress about 9 years ago. It’s damning…

@mrspotatohedz

My main take from this tread is that the OP would be better off choosing PHS if only to avoid a certain type of parent more prevalent at Ken Prep. All this first tier / second tier talk is so ridiculous and quite frankly teaching Phd level physics is not really want you need to think about when choosing a reception place.

I completely agree with your reasoning. I think that it's a mugs game trying to find the right "fit" for a 3 year old. You're much better off trying to find the right fit for the parents. At every school I've experienced, I've found:

• parents who complain that their children have too much homework and are being pushed too hard
• parents who complain that their children are not being challenged enough
• parents who believe that there is a lot to life beyond academics
• parents who believe that academic achievement is the surest pathway to "a good life"
• parents who emphasize wanting their DC enjoying their childhoods
• parents who emphasize wanting their DC to have financially secure futures

I don't think any of these are intrinsically right or wrong. I do think that you will make your life easier if you choose a school where the dominant parent group is aligned with your values.

As for whether OP should choose KP or PHS, well, I think they should have a think about their values and try to understand which values dominate at each school.

OP, I hope the relevant responses have helped you out. The massive derailment sub-thread is indeed illuminating when it comes to selecting a school based on some of the other parents who will be there...

@LondonGirl83

Using the average cat scores for admission on which GCSE predictions are made nationally and then the published progress data and value add scores for GCSEs to A-level available on the government’s website.

As you are well aware, the average CAT scores for admission at different schools, as sourced on MN, is highly contentious. And value added scores to GCSE would be more relevant for 11+ but they are not available for most private schools. Value added scores from GCSE are confounded by the additional layer of filtering as well as the considerable movement at sixth form, e.g., the assertion that many of the best girls go to Westminster.

The rest of your post essentially proves my other point quite nicely…

That there is a very substantial difference between the cohort averages at these schools?

My DD moved from Putney High to Westminster for 6th form where she did Maths and Further Maths and got A*s for both. At no point did she feel disadvantaged compared with the Westminster boys or some SPGS girls. Her Maths at Putney was fine.

My DD joined Putney Junior and it was a huge relief to avoid the 11+. You will be kicking yourselves when she gets to y5 and you’re trying all these schools again.

Well that certainly escalated. 😂

This all did escalate.

But I am still not sure what it proves that a few smartest girls from Putney/Francis Holland moving to Westminster for A-levels.

If it doesn’t matter where kids go for school - shouldn’t they have stayed put - as they would achieve the same where they were?
Moving for A-levels requires passing quite rigorous exams early in the GCSE year - so it doesn’t avoid stress. It just moves it to a later date.

Is the only argument on school selection, the avoidance of 11+?

And regardless of the discussion above - not all parents of academic preps/secondaries in west london are mad tiger parents.

Is the only argument on school selection, the avoidance of 11+?

That's all I'm reading, and I understand it terrifies some parents and PHS is a great school to keep your daughter through. But many posters are advising it who went to 4-11 preps , and the moving at 16+ one, why move?? I suspect the DD wanted a mixed environment??

Should have moved her at 11+ to LU ....I'm joking

My husband also has a PhD in Physics from a top university. He went to a boarding school which was non selective. I went to a gdst after state primary in West London, have a good degree and postgraduate. Knew plenty of people from my state primary school in west London and in the area and surrounding who went to private schools, including St Paul's and Westminster, Latymer Godolphin, gdsts etc. We did this with minimal fuss, a bit of tutoring from one of the teachers. I didn't even have a tutor but followed my older sister there. Btw she failed the Godolphin entry exam as a summer born child, but went onto get As at A levels, studied Physics at Imperial (with my husband). She teaches in a state school and has no desire to do so in the independent schools. State schools have some very excellent teachers too.
I had no idea about insanely pressurised and competitive the 11 plus entry has become for such schools and we moved dd because she was bored and many friends were leaving London and at a time we felt we could afford fees for both. Unless you are a tiger parent avoid the 11 plus as that is the most difficult route. Either go for an all through school, enter at 4, 7 or 8.
Or keep your child in a state primary and tutor in year 5 for exam familarisation - you actually have a strong chance of an offer from one of the very top schools - obviously provided your child has potential. At a state school your child will also have a more realistic view of life.

My dd when she started KPS had a high CAT score and was scoring average in both Maths and English. I was later told she was doing well especially as this was a very strong cohort and with strong characters. By late year 5 she was completely lost an dso were we as parents. Even her CAT score had dropped. Her confidence was so low. Between myself and husband we tried so hard to build her up but it was futile. I attribute this to the school's laissez faire attitude to tutoring and resting on their laurels and also lack of pastoral care for more sensitive children. In our case my daughter's grandmother died soon after lockdown after contracting covid but even before I could see they were not interested in wellbeing and building up a child's confidence.
Had the school said she needed a tutor we would have got one. They never did, in fact both me and husband just felt in the dark about the curriculum and how to consolidate the core subjects. When she was accepted the registrar told me they offer extra help ( at an additional cost) for those new girls who need to catch up but this was never suggested.
The exit results are skewed. They ought to publish acceptances not just offers. I certainly don't see my dds state school on there lol
We gave up our 11 plus offers ( we did have some) because we just lost faith and dd wanted to be with " more normal people". Fair enough, child. Lots of children do really well in state schools and many parents ensure they do extra curricular outside school if the school doesn't offer it. They don't brag but there are a few Oxbridge acceptances, plenty of Russell Group university destinations and a handful who study medicine and plenty who study sciences. They also have a vocational route and treat all students with respect regardless of academic ability.

I would say choose wisely and think about fit. Quite a few KPS parents wished they had chosen a more nurturing prep and quite a few people I spoke with said the atmosphere had really changed very recently. There are lots of school places available at independent preps and again these schools are very good at making you believe that they are in short supply. They are not and you DO have a choice.