Successful prep schools, is it the parents or the school?

[EgoGone]

I’m wondering how much of the success of these students is down to the school or the parents? I imagine that outside of school parents arrange tutors, lots of additional practice in specific instruments and extracurriculars etc.

So in year 6 when the child is leaving having achieved grade 7 in an instrument, is being considered for a national sports team, and has passed the 11+/got into the super selective independent school, how much of this was down to the parents really?

Presumably the school has provided opportunities to develop innate skills such as orchestra, performance in concerts, sports training and matches. Some preps are better at providing enrichment activities to supplement learning than others.

Don't forget the child too! You need to have a degree of aptitude to get to instrumental grade 7 by yr 6, or at least the intrinsic motivation to work hard for it?

I'm sure there are far more children in prep schools who don't achieve anything like the things you give as examples, despite having huge opportunities, a nurturing prep school, and ambitious/proactive parents. Likewise there are kids from disadvantaged backgrounds who are capable of all these things, who don't have the opportunities 🤷‍♀️

It’s mostly the innate ability of the child and then parental support primarily, though a supportive -high quality school environment is beneficial.

Prep school children who win sports scholarships though all compete in club sports outside of school for example. The music scholars I know it’s a similar story.

You can’t get a child into a top prep and then disengage. Nor can you over tutor and average child to scrape in a selective school and expect them to work a miracle and then them into a genius.

Tbf, you're right, and much of children's success outside the classroom is down to parental input. You can see the clear difference in children whose parents get them involved in many activities, support their sports, skills, music, hobbies etc, and those children who expect the school to do everything.

A lot will be parental input but there are some massive advantages to being in a prep that will help like access to orchestras, better sports facilities and teaching etc. there is a lot that can be taught in the school. However, there is one school near me that goes big on promoting gymnastics achievements but it’s clearly nothing to do with the school and everyone knows the children that excel will have been doing 20 hours a week in a club since they were tiny.

Depends on how you judge success. A happy child who gets into the secondary school that best fits them and they go onto great and wonderful things is a wonderful prep.

Or the miserable child who is subjected to numerous hours of tuition, scrapes into a highly selective school and then needs continuous tutoring to even be able to keep up.

The success of a prep school is getting your child into the right school for them, ignoring league tables or prestige.

As @Zodlebud says.
I've seen prep school kids also being heavily tutored. To the point that they miss social activities.
Personally I'd rather my kids did loads of extra curricular and learnt a bucket load of social & life skills

It depends on the prep.

For example, most preps already select at 4+ or whatever it is so they already pick bright kids with engaged parents.

But others, like Seaton House, are not selective (surprisingly) yet become number 2 in the country. I would say in this prep it shows the teaching must be doing something right despite not being selective.

@NetflixParents

It depends on the prep.

For example, most preps already select at 4+ or whatever it is so they already pick bright kids with engaged parents.

But others, like Seaton House, are not selective (surprisingly) yet become number 2 in the country. I would say in this prep it shows the teaching must be doing something right despite not being selective.

I would say Seaton House participates in SATS unlike most prestigious preps."Prep schools are ranked on their average performance in standard assessment tests (Sats) taken from 2017-19."

Which is great, but no decent prep actually participates in them!

In reality everyone knows Seaton House isn't the second best in the country, it's complete and utter nonsense. Just the preps that participate in that little league, all the greatest preps are missing!!

Where is Kensington Prep? Glendower , Wetherby, Bute, The Hall, St Thomas's ???

When I pick up Country Life good school guide, why is Seaton House completely absent ??

As to parents or school, its both of course, a meeting half way. Cram full a school full of bright kids , tiger parents and the teaching standards better be high, the children are in a competitive environment, even if not with each other, but themselves as each will be encouraged to be an individual and stand out in something for their 11+ applications to senior school.

I can only answer for sports. It was very useful in hockey and cricket for county/regional selection. The kids usually play club sport out of school but three training sessions and at least one fixture a week at school helps their progress.

In essence, it's another 5 or 6 hours practice a week, on top of out of school sport. I think there's less difference at secondary. We play some very strong state schools at rugby in particular.

not just parents but family as well. outings to historic places all over the world, travel to places obscure, introduction to foods from other cultures and sport knowledge and experience.
most olympians, have family who are olympians themselves there is a genetic component but the tricks of the trade get passed on as well.

Bit of both. My dd was grade 6 on two instruments and singing at 11, she went to a state primary. We paid for lessons (well not singing, that was down to church choir)

Some competitive preps select the parents. One near us notoriously preferred pushy parents with one SAHP and expected a child at 3+ to know their numbers and colours and letters in order to get in. In other words, the parents were already doing the work for the prep.

Depends what you define as "top" - for me, a prep that sends girls half to grammars and half to indies sound great.

What I don't like about those "top" preps you mention is that their focus is on top indie secondaries and none to superselective grammars that select only on merit and does not require parents of a certain level of income to afford fees. But if that is what people aspire to then that's great.

@NetflixParents

Depends what you define as "top" - for me, a prep that sends girls half to grammars and half to indies sound great.

What I don't like about those "top" preps you mention is that their focus is on top indie secondaries and none to superselective grammars that select only on merit and does not require parents of a certain level of income to afford fees. But if that is what people aspire to then that's great.

So a prep that costs thousands a year to prepare your DD to a local grammar is better than one that costs thousands a year to send to local indie school that is the best (state or private) in the country...I see your logic.

Also said grammar schools are full of council estate kids and those on free school meals...I'm sure. Living close to them is cheap too I suppose.

The reality is a family on free school meals pays nothing at the selective top indie schools through the system of bursaries - Take a school like St Pauls boys,

Both parents self-employed on low income. Living in rented accommodation. One child receiving 100% fee remission.

Both parents employed with low incomes. Living in modest home with mortgage. One child receiving 90% fee remission.

One parent with moderate income. Living in rented accommodation. Two children receiving 70% fee remission.

Parents both working in moderately paid employment. Modest home with mortgage. One child receiving 20% fee remission.

So in answer, NO these top schools don't require parents of a certain level of income - its attitudes like yours that causes parents of bright children with low incomes to de-select themselves -

@blueshoes

Some competitive preps select the parents. One near us notoriously preferred pushy parents with one SAHP and expected a child at 3+ to know their numbers and colours and letters in order to get in. In other words, the parents were already doing the work for the prep.

@blueshoes I would call that pushy as it’s part of the preschool EYFS curriculum. A school looking for that is just making sure a child is ready for school and not behind.

I think it's a perfect combination of parents who value education & prioritise it, extracurricular, being able to afford to bring the kids to the theatre, nice holidays, restaurants etc... Private or state the types of families you speak about will spend alot of their disposable income on their kids enrichment... They will be doing alot of the work for the school, particularly in the area of "soft skills".

@EgoGone

I’m wondering how much of the success of these students is down to the school or the parents? I imagine that outside of school parents arrange tutors, lots of additional practice in specific instruments and extracurriculars etc.

So in year 6 when the child is leaving having achieved grade 7 in an instrument, is being considered for a national sports team, and has passed the 11+/got into the super selective independent school, how much of this was down to the parents really?

it's largely down to the school.

As a mediocre musician from a completely non-musical family…my prep school pushed me by 11 to Grade 4 flute, was preparing me for Grade 5 Theory and I participated in weekly orchestras (they were not optional!). DS goes to a really good state school but there is no orchestra and precious few of his classmates take any instrumental lessons (they are heavily subsidised if you are pupil premium although that may not be enough in today’s climate).

Variety of factors

1. The school offering the opportunities, encouraging, rewarding, ethos of high expectations
2. The parents - often putting a lot of effort (and having the time to do it) Into music /sports practice, homework etc etc and having very high expectations
3. The child having aptitude and interest to do these things

I have two dc in a 4-13 school where every year there are kids similar to what you describe. Also others who are not like that!

I have a child who is in the US but is Grade 8 on his instrument. He goes to a US ‘state school’ but all his music is done outside school. That has involved a lot of parental input, supervision of practice and…a lot of money.

Sorry I forgot to say that DS1 is 10 so Year 5 by UK standards and a fourth grader in the US.

Not all areas if the country have grammars of any kind available, and others do not have anywhere near enough places for all the DC that would make the 'pass' grade (whether superselective or otherwise)

So of course preps are going to prepare for independent secondaries. It's their historic reason for existing, and as there is an assumption that parents are good for the fees (the number paying for prep is way smaller than the number paying for secondary) then of course they'll be looking at private school transfer. It's not a mark of weakness

There are of course private secondary which are as fiercely academic and competitive for entry as superselective grammars, others less so.

A lot, I think, comes down to whether you have a utilitarian view of schooling as the journey to the grades and the next stage in life, or whether you also want to enjoy the journey and what you want to (or can) pay for the particular features of it

Our prep is non selective but gives alot more oomf than the last school we were at. The teachers work extremely hard and are very helpful and keen to make things work. So I think staff has a massive impact.
All kids play sport 4 times a week so a total of about 5 hours a week plus 1 or 2 fixtures from year 3. So you could get reasonably good at a main sport without joining a club.
We are outside London so no kids getting tutored but some go to Eton etc.
As for music I suspect more parental input is required here. The families who take music seriously seem to start young and the kids are doing 2 instruments and are grade 5 by year 5 or 6...

this would be my answer.
50% is down to the child, 25% school, 25% parents