Successful prep schools, is it the parents or the school?

[EgoGone]

I’m wondering how much of the success of these students is down to the school or the parents? I imagine that outside of school parents arrange tutors, lots of additional practice in specific instruments and extracurriculars etc.

So in year 6 when the child is leaving having achieved grade 7 in an instrument, is being considered for a national sports team, and has passed the 11+/got into the super selective independent school, how much of this was down to the parents really?

this would be my answer. 50% is down to the child, 25% school, 25% parents

@blueshoes

Some competitive preps select the parents. One near us notoriously preferred pushy parents with one SAHP and expected a child at 3+ to know their numbers and colours and letters in order to get in. In other words, the parents were already doing the work for the prep.

Agree with that. Some preps choose specific type of parents with a capable kids

We’ve done both state and private.

The state classes have an average of 3 SEN children per class and my experience was that those children dominated the classtime and there wasn’t much time to focus on other children. One teacher soent a great deal of time every leason trying to keep the SEN children physically in the room!!

The prep schools don’t seem to have such children, I don’t know if they’re managed out, or given tuition in a separate room, or what, but the class is blissfully peaceful and my child can actually learn at Prep. Add to that a happier teacher who’s long-term committed to the school and not over worked, plus parents who are focused on homework etc - it’s a different world. Ironically the curriculum is very similar but at Prep they whizz through it before lunch and then play sport / music all afternoon.

My son has ASD and an EHCP and went to a prep school perfectly happily - now a music scholar at a very well known public school. NT kids in his class far more disruptive than he ever was.
Kids with SEN can do well with the right support. NT kids can be problematic in the classroom too.

EstelleCostanza what is NT?

Neverreturntoathread we've done state and private too but I would say your experience isn't necessarily that of everyone. DC1 had 23 in her state primary class (2 years in 1 class) and there was one child with an EHCP but they had a TA and the child had excellent behaviour and the behaviour of the rest of the class was not an issue. Moved to a private prep to a class of 13 but one of those had anger management issues and v disruptive and the parents failed to recognise their child needed extra support so the whole class suffered. The Parents complained about the teacher and the teacher was made redundant!! We still had the child with the anger issues!!!
DC2 had a state school class of 23 (including 3 years). Multiple child with some SEN but not enough to get an ECHP and hence no additional TAs so very little teacher time for DC2 (also teacher was a NQT so a hard gig for her). He moved to private prep with 12 in the class including one with SEN but he gets additional support so the teacher is in a better position to teach all the children.

NT means neurotypical.
I think it’s quite common, in the private sector, to find parents who don’t want to acknowledge their child might have additional needs. I saw and see this a lot.

I think you also need to consider the peers. Children role model for each other and can also create a nurturing or competitive environment. Some of the tone is set by parents/schools but not all of it.

Eating foods from other cultures is not necessarily an advantage. In fact, it can be most most unwholesome.

It all preps are the same. Some prep for for top Independent senior schools for admission at 13. Others are havens away from poor state schools. The parents vary a great deal. Our prep was non selective and sent DC to top schools. No DC had behaviour issues but some had dyslexia. My DD1 went to state school and the range of after school activities was small so we paid for music. You would find gifted musical parents had gifted musical children and all paid for lessons - state or prep.

Prep had better sport. More musical DC who were very talented. Longer hours and much more going on. Behaviour was good at both schools but the state school could not select our children. Parents do support prep schools snd their DC but the majority did at the state schools too. The broader education was at the prep but 4 at the state school went to Oxbridge so it had very bright DC there too.

TizerorFizz I think no question that at non selective schools whether state or private children are equally bright (especially at the top). I think children with EHCP often get better education at state than private unless the private school is specifically set up for them. Children with slight SEN probably better off at private school due to, typically, smaller classes.

It is a mix of things. I'll add our experiences - at a state school.

I think it is a triangle of - 1) school factors 2) parental/home factors and 3) child factors. So in that triangle - for DS -

1. School factors: At an outstanding, small, STATE infant. Not private.

1. Parent/Home factors: He has a a professor mum - who's v academic and spends 30-40 mins a day with him on his learning. This is already at a high level - over and above the school's provision. this means we are being able to focus on writing (stamina, but also complexity of words, spellings, sentences) or maths (depth of maths, mental maths) - in a way the school homework just doesn't cover.

1. Parent/home factors continued: As i said - it's a state school. But outside the school He is also given massive supplementation by us - he attends ECB coaches- coached cricket, ica-skating, swimming, piano lessons, theatre and LAMDA, French (with tutor, and with me daily), coding and programming - outside of school, and in school he does science club and construction and tech.

1. Then there's the child factor - DS is intrinsically curious, super-energetic and with a particular aptitude for maths, music, tech and writing. We can see zero sportiness in him. He still does his cricket, skating and swimming - but he clearly picks up things on the piano, looks forward to code club and writes reams and does all sorts of mental maths in a way he absolutely doesnt with sport.

So - although he is in state - parental influence is big, home environment is a big shaper too - and the child at the core. What are their interests? Are they happy? Lots of friends? Lots of fun? Well-adjusted? Enjoying what they do or being dragged around loads of things? Are they doing things they genuinely actually enjoy? or are they doing thing being forced on to them?

All these things matter.

IlFaitBeau can I ask are alot of other families doing work outside of school too? My friends in London spend 1-2 hrs per day tutoring their own children which is apparently common at their school.
I tried an extra 30 mins with my own DC and it turned into a daily battle as no one else was doing it at school.

@MrPickles73

IlFaitBeau can I ask are alot of other families doing work outside of school too? My friends in London spend 1-2 hrs per day tutoring their own children which is apparently common at their school. I tried an extra 30 mins with my own DC and it turned into a daily battle as no one else was doing it at school.

I have no idea! With us it;s become so normalised now - that we do 20 mins over breakfast as we rise early and then 20 mins before bed - that he doesn't object. But i genuinely dont know what's occuring with classmates.

It's a mixture of both. Parents who are paying for prep school are likely to be involved in their children's education, as are many parents whose children go to state schools.

Prep schools are often able to offer good opportunities such as music tuition, chess lessons, sports facilities, that give the children an edge when it comes to getting into the good senior schools, but mostly it's due to the ability of the child.

Some prep schools are selective at entry point, which means they are already working with children who are above average and likely to achieve good results.

Innate ability of the child and support from the parents in my view. There were kids at my dd's state primary with similar abilities.

It's mostly the ability of the students and the parents. The school makes a difference though for most it's at the margins. Outliers who need a more individualised approach for any reason, in the right indie, probably benefit the most.

I think state school and private provide much the same in core subjects i.e. maths and english esp at primary. But for a more rounded education the average independent prep will beat the average state primary hands down.
DC1 now in year 7 at inde prep and her BF in local state secondary;

• inde prep 1 hour sports per day plus optional clubs, matches every week / every other week
• state - 1 hour per week sports and every other week is theory - WTF, girls sports match once or twice a term, boys sports match not yet happened this academic year!!!!!!!!!!!!
• inde prep - science 2 hrs per week
• state - science teacher off sick since Jan so no practical work just sheets out of text book .. and I'm sure there's more. Some of the teaching at state secondary (art and music) v good but BF is having maths and english tutoring as both teachers are dire. We pay about £16k per year for the inde prep and I think given the alternative it is money well spent.

@MrPickles73
It’s really difficult to know what an “average”
Prep is. I have several within a 20 minute drive of me. One is very average. DD2 went to the nursery and YR there and I could see, beyond that, my money was not being well spent. Lack of sport, tiny classes, virtually no bright DC, lack of friends, and poor facilities for most things junior DC need was absent. I can assure you, our local state schools were all better!

However a bit further away was an 11 plus Crammer with impressive 11 plus results to the local grammars. Again virtually no sports facilities and pretty average facilities for everything else. Usp was 11 plus results. Another prep used by parents in a nearby town did have better facilities and was sending pupils to a mix of grammars and local day schools. These two are very different from the first prep.

The best prep had everything. It cost more. It didn’t prep for the 11 plus. Many DDs went to Wycombe Abbey and Cheltenham Ladies College. It could not have been more different from the prep with the lovely Nursery. The parents were different too. They intended to pay for stellar independent schools from 3-18. No-one at the first prep I described could afford that.

It’s clear to me that people have different reasons for using preps. I’m now not sure why anyone would use prep 1. Other than for the small class issue. But when is small too small?With high quality teaching elsewhere, that’s a moot point too. They didn’t have great teachers. Parents liked the “club” of the school. It elevated them from folk who used their local school. However they rarely knew what a local school was like. Ours turned out to have many many brighter DC than at the little prep. People definitely used the prep as a haven. Lots of very “protected” children there.

At the prep where lots of girls sailed into great independent schools, the girls had confidence and embraced everything a great school can offer. I remain mystified as to why parents pay for a school with hardly any DC in it, poor facilities and not great 11 plus results. When DD started in nursery it had 36 DC. When they got to y6, 4 were left! So they had to resort to mixed age classes. Not my idea of a prep. But clearly some people will pay for to separate themselves from others but for little gain for DC.

[quote TizerorFizz]@MrPickles73
It’s really difficult to know what an “average”
Prep is. I have several within a 20 minute drive of me. One is very average. DD2 went to the nursery and YR there and I could see, beyond that, my money was not being well spent. Lack of sport, tiny classes, virtually no bright DC, lack of friends, and poor facilities for most things junior DC need was absent. I can assure you, our local state schools were all better!

However a bit further away was an 11 plus Crammer with impressive 11 plus results to the local grammars. Again virtually no sports facilities and pretty average facilities for everything else. Usp was 11 plus results. Another prep used by parents in a nearby town did have better facilities and was sending pupils to a mix of grammars and local day schools. These two are very different from the first prep.

The best prep had everything. It cost more. It didn’t prep for the 11 plus. Many DDs went to Wycombe Abbey and Cheltenham Ladies College. It could not have been more different from the prep with the lovely Nursery. The parents were different too. They intended to pay for stellar independent schools from 3-18. No-one at the first prep I described could afford that.

It’s clear to me that people have different reasons for using preps. I’m now not sure why anyone would use prep 1. Other than for the small class issue. But when is small too small?With high quality teaching elsewhere, that’s a moot point too. They didn’t have great teachers. Parents liked the “club” of the school. It elevated them from folk who used their local school. However they rarely knew what a local school was like. Ours turned out to have many many brighter DC than at the little prep. People definitely used the prep as a haven. Lots of very “protected” children there.

At the prep where lots of girls sailed into great independent schools, the girls had confidence and embraced everything a great school can offer. I remain mystified as to why parents pay for a school with hardly any DC in it, poor facilities and not great 11 plus results. When DD started in nursery it had 36 DC. When they got to y6, 4 were left! So they had to resort to mixed age classes. Not my idea of a prep. But clearly some people will pay for to separate themselves from others but for little gain for DC.[/quote]
Interesting, and I completely agree.

Prep 1: it sounds like the only pro is that it has small classes, but without everything else, that is meaningless.

Prep 2 and 3 are both good: prep 2 for those that want their DC to go to a local supergrammar, and prep 3 for those that can/want to go to competitive/fancy secondary indies.

So I almost feel like it depends on the destination plan for secondary. No point going to prep 2 if you want a indie secondary, but equally, no point going to prep 3 if the plan is to ultimately go to a local grammar that's super competitive.

I get the point around lack of facilities, but if their academics are good, you can just as easily do some of the sports and fun stuff outside of school yourself. Leave the tough education stuff to the prep.

@NetflixParents

I really couldn’t provide the extras that were available at the best prep. Lacrosse, orchestras, fantastic art, and all sorts of after school clubs were difficult to get to, let alone find. Paying more had huge benefits. Also the prep was quite demanding so continual travel to activities would eat into the day too much. The best school took a much broader view of education. That suited us.

And yes. Destination is the vital ingredient.

New parent doing homework for my DD’s school options. Any great nurseries and pre-prep schools in Clapham please? Is it realistic to commute from Clapham to Sloan square for schools at all? Or it is too brutal for young DD? Many thanks!

@SupermamaV
Maybe start a new thread? This was a very general one.

[quote TizerorFizz]@SupermamaV
Maybe start a new thread? This was a very general one.[/quote]
Yes’ thanks so much! Just notice the mistake (my fist post here) and started a new thread.

@BlueCherryBlossom

Don't forget the child too! You need to have a degree of aptitude to get to instrumental grade 7 by yr 6, or at least the intrinsic motivation to work hard for it?

I'm sure there are far more children in prep schools who don't achieve anything like the things you give as examples, despite having huge opportunities, a nurturing prep school, and ambitious/proactive parents. Likewise there are kids from disadvantaged backgrounds who are capable of all these things, who don't have the opportunities 🤷‍♀️

Exactly.

Also, if you are a working parent with more than one child there is really only so much you can do.