Bridging the gap

[Apples2021]

We are currently discussing whether to send our 3 year old to an independent prep or to the local primary in 2022. We are leaning towards state primary and then independent senior school at 11.

If we choose the state primary, does anyone have any tips for bridging the gap between state and independent? What can we do as parents to bridge the gap? Any after school activities, trips, holidays etc.? Any ideas really welcome. Thanks

Perhaps see if you can view activities on the school website.

Surely you just send your children to school and do what normal regular parents do which is do activities that you can afford and fit your schedule. So continue life with swimming lessons, some other sport and perhaps some music lessons. Then go on your usual family breaks to wherever excites you and is child friendly.

Be a parent whatever school your child attends so read most nights, get plenty of outside activity, show good example by being active yourself.
If you want to fit in at private school later probably tennis lessons might be useful.
My dc went to regular primary and Secondary at private school and the mixture of kids was so wide there is no way we could have planned for the possibilities. But they fitted in fine by just being themselves .

My wife works at a Eton group London public boys school and their selection and interview at 11+ for boys from Primary are 'different' than those from a selective Prep. There are certain expectations from selective preps that wouldn't be there from primary state schools. The idea is to try and give each applicant (private or state) an equal assessment.

At the university I teach, there is a huge in-balance of private school kids, when you consider they make up 7% of kids at school nationally, The Sutton Trust says pupils from eight schools filled 1,310 Oxbridge places over three years, compared with 1,220 from 2,900 other schools. EIGHT schools- guess which ones? Well most are private and they include the schools that dominate the chat of tiger parents on mumsnet- St Pauls girls, St Pauls boys, Eton, Westminster , Kings College etc.

So I wouldn't worry about 'bridging a gap' so to speak, any selective 11+ school is very familiar with the differences, they will be looking for potential in your DC.

I would familiarise myself with the entry route for your hopeful school now, speak to them, explain your situation, don't be afraid to engage with the school. Check out bursaries and work out how are you going to afford fees and extras , the fees quoted aren't the only thing you'll be spending sums of money on-clothes, trips, music lessons, yoga lessons!

Some parents invest in tutors for exam entry, my advice would be supplement areas with past papers yourself, especially coming from the State sector the school will view your DC outside the hot house conduit of selective preps.

I would encourage after school activities- especially mastering a musical instrument, which encourages practice and commitment, and culturally enriching your child with museums and art galleries, concerts and encourage an interest in current affairs. Debate with your child and books and learning should be everywhere in your home. Its hard to instill these things if you don't set an example yourself.

Do these things and your child will be at no real disadvantage, especially as he/she will be assessed as a state school applicant.

@DaddyPhD those oxbridge stats make me want to weep. I just don't believe that the verybrightest kids in the country are almost all also very wealthy. So so sad

Op are you concerned with enrichment or admission or fitting in?

@DaddyPhD that stat quoted by the press is very misleading. 7 percent of all students are privately educated because almost no one is in primary school years. However, 18 percent of A-level students are educated at independent schools!

OP as you can see from the stats above most kids go the route you are choosing so I wouldn’t really worry about it.

Irrespective of school choice, all children benefit from learning an instrument and doing sports. Team sports I think are particularly character building. I’d really be led by your child’s interests though: coding, art, studying a language are all great extracurricular activities provided at private schools that you can arrange as clubs / activities.

Try not to do too much though. Private schools fit all of this in mostly during the school day. Adding it on top of an already full day at state school plus the extra work to prepare for the 11+ could burn all of you out.

As mentioned by a poster above, my DD’s indie school assesses state and prep applications differently and has a target admission number for each so depending on where you are applying you may not be directly competing against prep school pupils.

@LondonGirl83

That 18% includes many adults doing A levels at private colleges, state school students retaking A levels and foreign students at private colleges, I see all this at my uni, so it's not really misleading.

Even if we take 18% of A level students, we still have a situation where 35- 38% privately educated at the top universities, and it gets more narrow once they graduate, so 65% of Senior judges -are ex-private, we are still talking about considerable overrepresentation.

I'm no socialist, our DD is at a pre-prep and is heading to an elite prep in central London, but it's no point hiding from the OP what they must suspect that private education is a huge leg up over a state education, it's just a plain fact. Starting at 11 is still a huge privilege, but starting at 4 is too.

Depending on the type of Independent senior you are planning, your DC might be at a bit of a social disadvantage if they have never played the major sports before. A lot of kids from prep schools will have played them a lot.

Potentially, not having done any Latin or classics.

DC from prep schools may also have spent a lot more time on stage and performing and be more confident with that.

DC from prep schools may have had specialist teaching from Y3 rather then form teaching and some may have done some boarding and therefore be more used to organising themselves/ being independent.

However, every Independent takes some kids from the state sector and preps vary so your DC will not be the only ones who haven't done all of those things at school.

@DaddyPhD I was making the point that lots of private school kids don’t go to private primary so the op doesn’t need to worry too much.

Regarding the leg-up, you are overstating the numbers. I say this as someone who strongly supports increasing state school representation at elite schools by the way. I went to state school.

The vast majority of the 18 percent indie students at A-level are normal fee paying students. Independent school students also get a disproportionate share of the top grades in part because they are selective (academically and economically) and in part because of the advantages conferred by private schooling itself. About 23.3 percent of AAA grades are awarded to students in the independent sector and 26.6 percent of AAA are awarded to students in the independent sector.

Regarding Oxford, circa 31 percent of students admitted are from indie schools (down from 42 percent 5 years ago). This is still too much given the share of A-level students and top grades and I’m very much in favour of the outreach programmes to encourage more state students to apply (many with top grades don’t as they don’t think it’s for them) as well as schemes like Opportunity Oxford Programme. The data on Cambridge is similar. Based on the progress made to date in another 5 years I believe the over representation will be all but gone.

So while there is an advantage it’s worth contextualising it properly and acknowledging how rapidly things are changing. Going to prep school is hardly the end all and be all. Most private secondary school students don’t. The overwhelming majority of elite university students don’t go private at all. Senior judges are from generations past and don’t reflect what’s happening now.

87.5 percent of AAA grades are earned by students living in more socially economically advantaged areas irrespective of school type. Being well-off with educated parents is the main source of advantage in life. The OPs child will almost certainly be fine regardless.

@LondonGirl83

"Being well-off with educated parents is the main source of advantage in life."

It's all relative isn't it? For me, if one is talking about a good life, then sure. If one is talking about the elites of this country, then no, it's not enough, it's a lot of things that are invisible.

Oxbridge makes up barely 1% of undergrads, but is hugely over-represented in every top profession, examine privately educated in any top profession and they are hugely over represented again.

Another poster put it so well, 'socal advantage', the things you learn at prep that's aren't on any websites, that carry these children into adult life, i see it in my wife who went to an exclusive prep, and the friends she still has. I went to a run down comp and met my wife at university ( I was the first in my family and only one from my school,) Socially I found university a huge strain and I've always felt like an imposter throughout my academic career, just the same as I do when I'm with my wife at some 'season' event where she's at complete ease with 'her people'.

Its naive to think we're heading to some European style egalitarian in the face of overwhelming evidence social mobility has stagnated and the gulf between wealthy and middle class (never mind the working class) grows each year, and all this before Covid....

But @londongirl83, I do dearly hope I'm wrong, and you are in fact correct about all this!

@2reefsin30knots

Depending on the type of Independent senior you are planning, your DC might be at a bit of a social disadvantage if they have never played the major sports before. A lot of kids from prep schools will have played them a lot.

Potentially, not having done any Latin or classics.

DC from prep schools may also have spent a lot more time on stage and performing and be more confident with that.

DC from prep schools may have had specialist teaching from Y3 rather then form teaching and some may have done some boarding and therefore be more used to organising themselves/ being independent.

However, every Independent takes some kids from the state sector and preps vary so your DC will not be the only ones who haven't done all of those things at school.

@DaddyPhD

I think we are talking at cross purposes.

The vast majority of students at Oxbridge are state educated. Being privately educated isn’t a requisite for access to an elite education.

That the UK has a class system that’s been very damaging goes without saying. Are you saying the OP should send her child to prep school to be part of the Old Boys network and put her children in a different social class they otherwise wouldn’t have access to and move in the right circles?

@LondonGirl83 thank you for this. I am worried about fitting in, enrichment and probably most importantly, will she be happy? I am a teacher and have worked most latterly in a well-known independent boarding school, so the academic side is familiar to me.
What I don't know much about is being at a prep school at age 4, and what advantages this might gain a child over being in a state primary before transferring to a prep aged 11. I suppose I'm asking whether we can actually do a better job than a prep merely by being a being a bit proactive about it? And I wanted some ideas from others about how to go about this. I probably didn't phrase my original post particularly clearly! We are lucky that we could choose independent for both, but both my husband and I are concerned that it might be quite limiting socially and a bit sheltered. We are outside London and our prep options have small cohorts with v similar backgrounds and not a huge amount of diversity.
But, it is good to hear that the majority of people choose state primary followed by independent senior!

@LondonGirl83

Oh god no,

For me, to miss out on prep is to miss out on the social side of things that another poster listed that's lacking in English state school. Its not about trying to jump up a class or old boys network. I think that sort of social climbing goes way beyond just sending your DC to prep school.

I can only really comment for our own DD, if she turns out to be smart enough and inclined for a very selective academic Indie school at 11+, she'll 'probably' be better equipped to excel coming from a selective prep, compared to attending a state, but she could also flourish coming from state school for sure.

Many state school girls do brilliantly at schools like St Pauls girls, some state senior schools in London, like the grammars and comps like Camden school for Girls, I'd give my right arm for my DD to get in. That's a whole different thread.

The OP was considering prep but thought a more practical solution is state and senior indie, you're correct that this route is popular especially for ordinary middle class parents given that preps in London are 7 grand a term, and even those struggling' on 90 grand a year - aren't going to get help with full fees reduction ( 90K a year for a family in London is far far cry from what I define as wealthy) but it's usually the cut off for any sort of bursary help

But for some (like us) that 'social advantage 'of prep is important - performance, languages, sport and music and and we're willing to make sacrifices (like a lot of prep school parents) to try and juggle both prep and senior indie. I know many parents would like to do that, but its just not economically possible.

In my original reply (like you) we emphasised how parents can 'bridge the gap' by introducing this 'social education' themselves.

But as I said, I do hope your optimism for things changing is correct. And I'll be the first to admit it , parents like me aren't exactly helping making the education system more fair and inclusive.

@Apples2021 you can through classes and activities recreate a lot of the co-curricular opportunities. It takes more effort and time for the entire family but it definitely can be done.

How your child fits in will depend on the school more than on if he or she went to prep. If the demographics of the senior school are really narrow and different from your own, the risk of not fitting is higher irrespective of if your child attended a prep or primary.

If you say what senior schools you are aiming for, posters can give you more insight. Even top London day schools are very different in feel and socioeconomic mix and the number of state school students admitted etc.

@DaddyPhD

I guess I view prep more as a luxury. Like buying a Porsche rather than a Ford. Both will get you where you want to go but it’ll be a different experience.

The prep activities can be recreated by state school parents (much more cheaply) but with considerable more effort.

Because prep activities are done primarily at school rather than after school and on the weekend, it takes some of the pressure off of family life. It’s less tiring for the kids as well. The facilities are also better and if your child is academic and at a selective school, the pace of learning and level of differentiation should be better suited as well, making learning and the school day more enjoyable.

Is this worth spending £20k a year on if you have good / outstanding state schools as an option? It depends on your finances, how much time you have, your values, etc but it’s definitely a luxury choice. I have multiple friends who make the same or more than my family who are using the state system even though they can afford private as they think it’s a waste of money!

[quote LondonGirl83]@DaddyPhD

I guess I view prep more as a luxury. Like buying a Porsche rather than a Ford. Both will get you where you want to go but it’ll be a different experience.

The prep activities can be recreated by state school parents (much more cheaply) but with considerable more effort.

Because prep activities are done primarily at school rather than after school and on the weekend, it takes some of the pressure off of family life. It’s less tiring for the kids as well. The facilities are also better and if your child is academic and at a selective school, the pace of learning and level of differentiation should be better suited as well, making learning and the school day more enjoyable.

Is this worth spending £20k a year on if you have good / outstanding state schools as an option? It depends on your finances, how much time you have, your values, etc but it’s definitely a luxury choice. I have multiple friends who make the same or more than my family who are using the state system even though they can afford private as they think it’s a waste of money![/quote]
The trouble is - your argument can be used perfectly against private senior schools. I think its difficult (impossible) to dismiss prep as luxury and not apply the same logic to indie senior schools, especially the boarding schools which cost over 30K in real terms a year on average.

As Richard Beard says - Ultimately the most convincing reason to go to a private school remains to have gone to a private school, with the prizes that are statistically likely to follow.

Why do you think there will be a gap to bridge
I work in a prep school...I'd say only difference to my own kids state school was sport ...prep do a lot more

@DaddyPhD I think the same argument does hold true for private secondary. Statistically, children from the same socio-economic backgrounds do equally well academically whether attending state, grammar or indie schools.

Private school IMO has most value-add for outliers that the state system has the hardest time accommodating like highly gifted students and those with SENs if the right indie school can be found (not all are great with these kids either).

Beyond that, if you have parents that value education, provide stability and have resources to deal with problems, tutor and provide general enriching experiences that’s what statistically has the biggest impact it’s true.

It’s a luxury choice but knowing that a Porsche is a luxury compared to Ford doesn’t mean you shouldn’t buy it!

I should add though that families well off enough to pay for private but that use state will likely be living near top performing state schools which obviously is part of the statistical results. That plus tutoring and other middle class advantages come into play. You can’t just send a child to any old state school and then disengage and get the same outcomes.

We chose state for primary, indie for secondary (in the 11+ process now with dd2).

The advantages of state for primary are cost, very little homework so lots of free time for other interests, super local (frees up time and makes independent travel to school possible in Y5&6), local friends.

Compared to the DC from preps at DC1’s school, the disadvantages were no competitive sport (no competition full stop, not knowing the rules of netball for example), limited music provision based on volunteers (an ‘orchestra’ which anyone can join and play a triangle), no teaching ahead of the National Curriculum for that year (slow pace, and an ethos of sideways extension not pressing ahead), a real focus on shaping topics and chosen books to engage the (majority) boys in the class.

We supplemented with music, dance and sport outside school. But that requires an adult at home to take them (so an after school nanny or a parent) and quite a lot of organising and scheduling. A prep would make that unnecessary.

On the other hand, we gained the opportunity for them to spend significant time on their favourite activities. So the non sporty one did / does hours of dance after school, and avoided sport. At a prep, she’d have got a bit of both, and she was much happier with the balance she chose. It’s also a lot less stressful doing 11+ when hardly anyone else you know is doing it and the DC aren’t comparing results in the playground.

A resource to help www.youtube.com/channel/UCpw5UAFfIo4C__NwIikMRvA

If your DC is bright, confident, sociable, resilient and self starting they will do brilliantly in a decent state school.
If they are anxious or have the sort of SEN that might suit a smaller class size (not necessarily better SEN teaching as this is very often better in state) then private school might be needed.
In our changing world I would be cautious to put them in the tiny stigmatised 7% unless you really have to (I am privately educated so know first hand how stigmatised you can be.)

I have every intention to go private for secondary but haven’t made the move for primary. I don’t doubt though that private adds value in the older primary years but paying fees all the way through would add a lot of stress to our lives and we’d rather supplement state at the moment. I also value being part time.

Things to consider

You have to compare the schools you have not look at a blanket state v private. Our primary has facilities that would rival many preps and is a lovely school. I have definitely ruled out schools that don’t have a linked secondary as the value-add doesn’t seem as great. The junior privates I’ve seen they have links to secondaries have amazing facilities. There is a prep in our village and very few local children go because the value add isn’t high compared to the state.

There is also a value to us in being part of the local community and our children having local friends and being able to walk to school.

But… the downsides are large class sizes, very limited music provision and some disruptive behaviour in class. I’m sure my daughter would thrive in a selective school and that is very much the intention for year 7. l’m still tempted for year 3 but I don’t know if the financial impact is worth it to make the move at that point.

@Apples2021
I’m not sure there is truly a gap to bridge in many areas!

My DD1 went to state primary and happily went to boarding school aged 11. Top in French by Y8 having never done French before. Just as good at music as many others (we have brilliant music provision in my LA) and she wasn’t behind in anything! She got a 6th form scholarship and now has a very good career. Oxbridge is besides the point for the majority anyway! What you can do is help with music provision, sport and general knowledge. We had great holidays for example.

Other DD did go to a top prep after infant school. They certainly had better facilities than any state school. Some preps don’t but I feel if you pay, you want the best. The curriculum was broader but some teaching wasn’t great. Smaller classes but less checking on how each DC was doing. So it’s not necessarily a given that private is better.

From where I live, the brightest children largely are the offspring of university educated parents. The schools with fewer of these have lower sats results. Many wealthy people tend to have generations at public schools. Not just one generation. They have had generations in top jobs! But everyone can compete if they want to.

@TizerorFizz You are so right! And the exact same thing happens with secondary school - the children who went to state secondary very easily keep up with the privately educated secondary children once they are all at university.
Really there is no need to pay at any stage if you are supportive, it is a 'nice to' not a 'need to.' Like a ready meal compared to a home cooked one.

[quote Chocalata]@TizerorFizz You are so right! And the exact same thing happens with secondary school - the children who went to state secondary very easily keep up with the privately educated secondary children once they are all at university.
Really there is no need to pay at any stage if you are supportive, it is a 'nice to' not a 'need to.' Like a ready meal compared to a home cooked one.[/quote]
@Chocalata

Sorry, but that's not the experience I've seen at the university I teach, or that of my colleagues. State school students are under-represented at every top university and private schools are massively over-represented at my uni and every top university, it's just a fact.

www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/state-school-university-uk-higher-education-russell-group-students-a9333701.html

We've seen it especially post Covid, kids who have suffered greatly in the state sector compared to kids at expensive schools, in fact Covid has been the great leveller in showing the stark differences in our school system ( and every other aspect of life in the UK)

While I applaud the great positivity for state education here on the thread, there needs to be some realism here. If you want to go to St Pauls Girls or Westminster - or any other top private senior school, Preps dominate entry, a fact. If you're happy with any other lower league indie senior, then its statistically easier without a top prep, or any prep.

Although prep school educated child statistically does better than a state school one, which when it comes to your child's future is a pretty nice 'nice to', not all preps are equal, far from it.

A top prep school prepares you for a top senior school, can you get there without them? Yes, is it harder? Yes.

Top prep schools and top senior schools make up a tiny portion of the private sector, so for me, it doesn't make sense to send your DC to a OK prep that sends most of its leavers to grammar schools and OK indie senior schools, you can get there with a state primary and your own support, yourself.

Not all Prep schools are equal, just as not all Indie senior schools are equal. So a distinction has to be made here,