Bridging the gap

[Apples2021]

We are currently discussing whether to send our 3 year old to an independent prep or to the local primary in 2022. We are leaning towards state primary and then independent senior school at 11.

If we choose the state primary, does anyone have any tips for bridging the gap between state and independent? What can we do as parents to bridge the gap? Any after school activities, trips, holidays etc.? Any ideas really welcome. Thanks

@DaddyPhD. Once you control for socio-economics and innate ability it’s been shown statistically that independent schools don’t outperform the state sector actually.

Most of the over representation compared to the circa 18 percent of indie students that sit A-levels is down to the grades they achieve which is down to the fact they are selective academically, socially and economically. Top schools pick winners rather than make them… Same goes for top universities it’s been shown.

Grammar school students are also very over represented at top universities as are well-off students in general from either sector for the same reasons. Grammar is more over represented than indies but it gets less media and political attention despite grammar schools being dominated by affluent families.

Another major component of over representation is that qualified state school students don’t apply proportionally compared to indie and grammar students to top universities. However, outreach programs are doing a lot to address this which has reduced the number of indie students at Oxbridge by more than 10 percentage points in the last 5 years.

The bigger problem with education is the very unequal outcomes achieved for bright poor students vs rich students in any sector. A huge gap opens up during secondary schooling for rich and poor students with the same year 6 results which fails a large cohort of students that are then locked out of further opportunities. This of course is much harder to address politically.

I’m a parent paying for indie and an Oxbridge graduate. Still, I know what it is I’m paying for and can see through the hype.

@DaddyPhD if you had bothered to read my post clearly (minus two points!) I was talking about when pupils get to university the students from both sectors do as well as each other. Yup would agree about application process at present but there is big change coming in that area thank goodness.
Like you say you cannot compare the top indies to the rather second rate ones either.

We might have to accept that some schools do have legions of clever children. Their families have been very bright for generations. Mine have not. Hence they didn’t get near a university. Or indeed would have been supported to go to one. They worked. Even though they went to grammar schools. The current generation of 18 year olds are born to a generation who mostly had access to university. Plenty could have tried for Oxbridge, but they decided not to. The same happens now. So yes, there will be changes in who goes but what jobs they aspire to might not change much! That’s yet another leap!

[quote Chocalata]@DaddyPhD if you had bothered to read my post clearly (minus two points!) I was talking about when pupils get to university the students from both sectors do as well as each other. Yup would agree about application process at present but there is big change coming in that area thank goodness.
Like you say you cannot compare the top indies to the rather second rate ones either.[/quote]
@Chocalata

I went off at a tangent to illustrate if state educated students are under -represented something has gone horribly wrong from the very start. ( I will put myself in detention) as yes, reading back, it side steps the fact that state school kids work harder and get better degrees than their private school counterparts as a whole. But if there are less of them getting through, proportionally, this is a huge problem.

Working class boys (like me) who make it to top universities have to struggle with imposter syndrome and lack the polish and confidence, maybe that's why we state school kids work so hard.

@LondonGirl83

I agree with pretty much everything you wrote. My post refers to the small portion of privates that feed the likes of your old university. It's almost St Pauls and Lady El's and Westminster, Kings can't be included in the private/state debate, as they are so distinct compared to other private schools.

And you put it perfectly - "The bigger problem with education is the very unequal outcomes achieved for bright poor students vs rich students in any sector." Couldn't put it better myself.

Parents like you and I know what we're buying into, yet we still dig deep into our pockets for our DC, when deep down we know our DC would probably achieve the exact same outcomes if we stuck to state.

@DaddyPhD
My parents felt like you - grammar educations and never felt they could ‘belong’ . They sent their DC to private school but we never felt we ‘belonged’ either. Maybe it is a human frailty! You sound like a great parent. But yes broadly speaking I think we’ll supported children with access to educational materials will do well in either sector - if they want to!! Sadly that is something no one can guarantee, at the end of the day it has to come from them.

@DaddyPhD I think what you are talking about is how class prejudice in the UK impacts fitting in when moving in very specific areas of British life more so they academic success at school.

That’s very real and probably there’s more snobbishness in academia where you work. I’m a foreigner in finance and foreigners have a different experience of this as we sit completely outside the system but I’ve witnessed the prejudices applied to British working class people and so won’t minimise it at all.

I would say it’s not as bad as having to belong to a small set of schools in most spheres of life though. The more international an industry is the less hold it has in my experience.

The British class system is insidious though.

I’m grammar educated. So is DH. Our DDs went to a top girls boarding school. They felt they belonged. They worked hard too! I deeply resent the idea that only state educated DC work. That’s complete and utter rubbish. My DD1 has a very demanding job. DD2 is retraining for an alternative career but I deeply resent the idea that they haven’t worked. What DD1 does have is ability and confidence. But state educated people have that too but they have to want the careers and universities enough to apply. Many don’t value it and don’t think they will fit in. We never ever said that to our DDs. They were encouraged to try for the best.

it doesn't make sense to send your DC to a OK prep that sends most of its leavers to grammar schools and OK indie senior schools, you can get there with a state primary and your own support

Is this true? Because we plan to move DS to prep in Y4 from his state primary for that exactly. Plan to sit DD for 7+ at a GDST that can take her through to 6th form or try for a better senior indie if she wanted to. We are in SE London.

I am not impressed with the state primary school, in particular for sports and lack of specialist teachers. The class is dragged down by 1 or 2 disruptive kids. I can see he's going from middling to just disengaged.

Younger DD is bright and likely will fare better than DS at 11+ so could stay on in state... but I want her out of her shell more. I'm not a tiger parent but think kids can and should be pushed to some extent.

@PerilousPlot
Where I live, there are two sorts of preps. The Grammar Crammers and the elite ones that go to 13 and mostly prep for the well known boarding schools. Parents therefore choose by destination at 11 or 13. The parents using the schools are therefore quite different. The latter have more money and know which schools they are targeting. Often alumni themselves! So it’s a mixed picture but the preps prepping for boarding do cost more and have better facilities and take sport, music and art and drama seriously because they expect pupils to get these scholarships! The Grammar Crammers don’t bother so much with this because pupils don’t apply for art or music scholarships anywhere! Often the sports facilities are poor. So be careful about generalising and thinking all preps are the same. They are not. There’s a definitive elite and it’s determined by destination. I would look at the scholarships gained in terms of academic, sport, music, drama and art to see which schools are elite and send DC to the elite schools. Essentially they will go to
13.

Hope that helps.

Thank you, yes it does. We are grammar crammers! Zero interest in music, art -let alone scholarships. Only going for day private schools. I know what kind of elite schools you mean and that's for the seriously wealthy! Not us.

Sports however, we are keen and one reason for prep. I teach them tennis myself and would really prefer if they were at a school that does more sports (PE games not expecting professional level) so they get better footwork, ball skills etc through regular practice and start to learn some team sports at this age. These are done best in a school environment. For a start my younger wants to try athletics and we have been on a waiting list for the local club for a year.

I think you will struggle with that level of coaching for tennis at a prep. My DDs firmer girls’ prep did have tennis courts and Where my DDs went to senior school, Queenswood in Hertfordshire, there’s 27 tennis courts and coaching. Tennis is taken very seriously there.

Preps? You would be very lucky to get anything like this. A local club would be better. Again athletics is best taught at clubs. Coaching might be offered as an extra in a school but you need a school with the courts and sports space. Lots have next to nothing.

Sorry. Slightly misread your post. Do look for a school with playing fields and sports opportunities. Preps can have cricket and rugby but not so much for the girls. I think girls schools do better with sport. However look for sports facilities, teams and coaching. LAX is played at some schools. Look for swimming and athletics opportunities too. However lots of DC do have private coaching if they are keen.

If you can go private I would.
State schools are struggling to provide enough glue sticks, they're crying out about funding, it's naive to pretend they'll offer as much enrichment and standard of education as independent schools.

That is helpful. Thank you. Sounds like prep doesn't actually solve the sports gap. I don't actually need it at serious level but just want more all round sporting exposure. I send both to cricket summer camp. I find it really tiring to do these things outside school but I'm expecting too much of a school.

@PerilousPlot

Thank you, yes it does. We are grammar crammers! Zero interest in music, art -let alone scholarships. Only going for day private schools. I know what kind of elite schools you mean and that's for the seriously wealthy! Not us.

Sports however, we are keen and one reason for prep. I teach them tennis myself and would really prefer if they were at a school that does more sports (PE games not expecting professional level) so they get better footwork, ball skills etc through regular practice and start to learn some team sports at this age. These are done best in a school environment. For a start my younger wants to try athletics and we have been on a waiting list for the local club for a year.

If you're in SE London have you looked at Jags prep for your DD? Or Alleyn's for both of them ( potentially sibling discounts) Dulwich Prep for your DS?

I don't know your financial situation, but often you may have a family with an income of 80 grand who think they aren't qualified for help, but the school's cut off may be 100k income.

Also these schools have great sporting facilities.

Like my earlier post, if you're going for Prep, aim very high, ironically the elite preps offer the best financial help for families, (but don't expect this if your income is over say 90K/ have a lot of equity in your home)

@AppleButterfly I don’t think anyone is suggesting state and indies offer the same facilities or resources. Just that a middle class parent can pay for sports, music and academic extension while using state schools with similar outcomes.
It’s a lot harder though which is why we go private!

@PerilousPlot JAGs and Alleyns both do a lot of sport as does Dulwich prep. No sibling discounts though and JAGs and Alleyns don’t offer bursaries until the senior school. They are both difficult to get into though- more than 10 applicants per place for the 4+ at Alleyns though JAGs, Dulwich Prep and Dulwich College Jr are easier. All would only suit an academic child though. Think top 5-10 percent of the national ability range across all of them.

@LondonGirl83
That is exactly it. A Waitrose ready meal or a home cooked meal from locally sourced ingredients. The home cooked option is time consuming but cheaper.

@AppleButterfly this is rubbish BTW. We use two different state schools and they are not crying out for glue sticks! Some are struggling more than others. Sadly it is those in middle class areas who have PTAs made up of successful professionals who manage to fundraise eye watering amounts of money to make sure that consecutive Tory governments cutting funding doesn’t have quite such an effect. As always it is schools in deprived areas that get hit hard. Don’t ever underestimate the lengths that middle class, educated, ambitious parents with children at state schools go to to make sure their children receive a very good standard of education and enrichment both inside and outside of school. Which is good because 75% of university students are state educated and you wouldn’t want your children to mix at Uni with people whose parents didn’t care about education I presume?

[quote LondonGirl83]@AppleButterfly I don’t think anyone is suggesting state and indies offer the same facilities or resources. Just that a middle class parent can pay for sports, music and academic extension while using state schools with similar outcomes.
It’s a lot harder though which is why we go private!

@PerilousPlot JAGs and Alleyns both do a lot of sport as does Dulwich prep. No sibling discounts though and JAGs and Alleyns don’t offer bursaries until the senior school. They are both difficult to get into though- more than 10 applicants per place for the 4+ at Alleyns though JAGs, Dulwich Prep and Dulwich College Jr are easier. All would only suit an academic child though. Think top 5-10 percent of the national ability range across all of them.[/quote]
@PerilousPlot

Applying for the best Preps is always worth a punt, especially as anyone who has gone through the process will testify, its not an exact
science. As your DC will be coming in from state rather than pre-prep, they will be given a fair assessment, and where you live, a chat with the parents, all these things play out for an offer or not, if your DC and your family fit into their ethos.

Officially this isn't on any admissions page, but the DC whose parents work in Tesco shelving and HGV driver is going to be assessed different from the DC whose parents are Oxbridge educated Professor and Architect , I mean they all ask for your occupation and 'interview' you.

The elite preps appear to be keen to attract families who normally don't send their kids to private school. And while the schools mentioned don't supply bursary until 11, limping through in an all through school from 7 to 11, might be worth the pain, and its good to know if the family income is severely reduced in the future, the school can help.

Some of the best prep schools in the country offer help from 7+,

Bute House (girls) , St Pauls boys Junior, Garden House (boys and Girls) , Newton Prep (boys and girls) Redcliffe (boys and girls)

The irony here is all these elite preps are in central/ west London in wealthy areas, with extremely wealthy parents as well as others struggling to pay fees. Its worth mentioning that these preps not only feed elite schools but they often share amazing sports facilities ( Bute with St Pauls girls senior) (Redcliffe with Hurlingham Club and Godolphin and Latymer.) so although situated in urban central London, they all have great sports access and first class education and provide bursary.

I mentioned JAPS (Alleyns prep) as both your DC can go to the same school and although they don't do sibling discount, all Indie schools look favourably on an applicant with a sibling already at the school,

Its not worth the money to send them to a average prep if you can use that money to coach in sports and pay for tutors and keep them in state. But if your state school is awful and/or you're an stretched parent working and time poor , and if you can afford it, a top prep will give your kids an advantage and prepare them for entry into a top school.

[quote Chocalata]@AppleButterfly this is rubbish BTW. We use two different state schools and they are not crying out for glue sticks! Some are struggling more than others. Sadly it is those in middle class areas who have PTAs made up of successful professionals who manage to fundraise eye watering amounts of money to make sure that consecutive Tory governments cutting funding doesn’t have quite such an effect. As always it is schools in deprived areas that get hit hard. Don’t ever underestimate the lengths that middle class, educated, ambitious parents with children at state schools go to to make sure their children receive a very good standard of education and enrichment both inside and outside of school. Which is good because 75% of university students are state educated and you wouldn’t want your children to mix at Uni with people whose parents didn’t care about education I presume?[/quote]
Your presumptions are incorrect. Private school will never be an option for us, minimum wage / very working class. But the schools here are struggling with funding, fairly regularly I hear about schools struggling across the country. Including ones here which on the whole is a pretty middle class area. Although I imagine a greater struggle in poorer areas. Teachers getting stressed needing to buy glue sticks and pencils themselves or go without.
If private school is an option I'd absolutely go choose that over state school.

@AppleButterfly actually just checked and it is currently 90% of UK students who went to state schools.
Sorry your state schools are badly funded. Have they got good PTA’s? I suspect we are heading towards the last few years of a massive Tory majority govt so hopefully funding increase will be in time for your particular schools.

I ding recognise teachers buying anything. Never in schools I know. So some schools make a fuss but often it’s due to falling rolls and falling funding as a result. The difficult choices are not to buy glue sticks or not, it’s whether to make staff redundant or not! Glue sticks really are an irrelevance when schools budget.

Wealthier areas have prep schools! Well that’s a surprise! Of course they do. What’s the point of having fee paying schools if no one can afford the fees? They are first and foremost businesses. They have charitable status but obviously they can never be free.

It’s inevitable that wealthier areas tend to produce better educated DC. The parents gave better jobs and are better educated themselves. It’s very difficult now we are several generations into comprehensive schools as to how you find bright children in poor areas. There are few of them. The better comps and grammars send plenty to the best universities. However it’s inevitable that some areas won’t.

Many deprived areas have ££££ of PP funding. They are all better off than schools with little pp funding. How they choose to spend it on the pp children is up to them but it’s a decent amount.

@Apples2021
I would evaluate what your local preps offer and your local state primaries. Are you in London or elsewhere?

@TizerorFizz

I ding recognise teachers buying anything. Never in schools I know. So some schools make a fuss but often it’s due to falling rolls and falling funding as a result. The difficult choices are not to buy glue sticks or not, it’s whether to make staff redundant or not! Glue sticks really are an irrelevance when schools budget.

Wealthier areas have prep schools! Well that’s a surprise! Of course they do. What’s the point of having fee paying schools if no one can afford the fees? They are first and foremost businesses. They have charitable status but obviously they can never be free.

It’s inevitable that wealthier areas tend to produce better educated DC. The parents gave better jobs and are better educated themselves. It’s very difficult now we are several generations into comprehensive schools as to how you find bright children in poor areas. There are few of them. The better comps and grammars send plenty to the best universities. However it’s inevitable that some areas won’t.

Many deprived areas have ££££ of PP funding. They are all better off than schools with little pp funding. How they choose to spend it on the pp children is up to them but it’s a decent amount.

@Apples2021
I would evaluate what your local preps offer and your local state primaries. Are you in London or elsewhere?

"Wealthier areas have prep schools! Well that’s a surprise! Of course they do. What’s the point of having fee paying schools if no one can afford the fees? They are first and foremost businesses. They have charitable status but obviously they can never be free."

But these are free for poor families, so they can be 'free'.

The majority started from charities rather than business.. And if you're going to start a business, starting a prep to make money is a very poor choice to make money!

The number one private school in the UK at the moment is St Pauls girls, which was founded by the the Worshipful Company of Mercers, which today funds charities and work in some of the most deprived areas in the country.

That's the irony, that people dismiss these grand schools as for the wealthy, when they are placed to help the poorest.

It's the same at university, a poor student struggling has a wealth of resources at the Oxbridge colleges, less so at a new Uni like Greenwich, but Greenwich receives much more working class students who perceive they will fit in better there and of course attend due to grade deflation of attending under performing states.

After many years on mumsnet I often wonder to myself, where do all these genius children that attend prep and then top senior go? They don’t all go to oxbridge. I wonder if the parents who are so often on here quoting stats and grades and extras curricular and debating society, are going to let their children off if they decide to focus on becoming fairly average adults.
The vast majority of children I was at a top senior school with turned out to be fairly mediocre, but their parents weren’t on Mumsnet with enormous expectations that might be rather crumpled.

@DaddyPhD Alleyns and JAGs are different schools with their own independent admissions. IJAGs is a girls school and Alleyns is
Co-Ed. Neither school has a sibling policy. Many, many siblings get rejected from both regularly particularly as both have become more selective over the years.

@PerilousPlot stand alone preps are more likely to offer bursaries at junior level rather than through schools. The wealth / prestige of the school doesn’t seem to be a factor. Dulwich prep (which is stand alone and not part of Dulwich College) offers bursaries as do a number of the smaller private prep schools in the area.

@Chocalata @Apples2021 the demographics of a school makes a huge difference. My closest local primary raised £40k from the PTA during Covid for a new computer lab. Meanwhile other less well-off schools couldn’t even get all their students computers at home to work remotely with during lockdown. The inequality between state schools is stark.