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Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

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Original poster

Reasonable expectations for support for Y4 maths (high ability)

44 replies

CurlyMcCurlFace · 12/10/2021 18:29

Honestly I don't know if DS is "high ability" or if his class are just rather behind. Regardless he is bored to tears with his maths lessons - Year 4.

I spoke to the teacher so many times last year (Y3) about offering him more challenges; it's the same class teacher this year and we've already spoken twice so I'm starting to wonder if I'm expecting too much??!

Basically DS is so far ahead of the majority of the class, the final 'stretch' challenges are like a starter for him and he hates sitting though the teaching part of the lesson. He is well behaved and never makes a fuss. At my insistence there is a folder of further challenges that he is allowed to tackle but they aren't really much better. She suggests after he is done he move onto timestables but he already has instant recall upto 12x12 and is top of the table on TTRS higher timestables so that doesn't really help. I'd really like him to actually learn something at least occasionally- is that too much to expect?? An hour a day doing busy work just seems like such a waste.

OP posts:

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Orangejuicemarathoner · 12/10/2021 18:31

He is likely to be achieving far less at school than with you at home, it is a different environment, and he will be more independent of adult support.

mw86 · 12/10/2021 18:42

Find stuff to do online, send him in to school with it, tell the teacher he'll sit at the back and do that if he doesn't get set stuff he is going to learn from. nrich.maths.org/ is a great website for extra enrichment activities, you can probably find other great sites online too. If the teacher is unhappy with this than she can find stuff for him to do herself and only has herself to blame

Original poster

CurlyMcCurlFace · 12/10/2021 18:53

@Orangejuicemarathoner

He is likely to be achieving far less at school than with you at home, it is a different environment, and he will be more independent of adult support.

I'm sure this is true to a degree but the teacher doesn't disagree that he is ahead - he completes all the stretch challenges she sets but any other available and helps other children in the class

OP posts:

Original poster

CurlyMcCurlFace · 12/10/2021 18:54

@mw86

This might be my next step but it's pretty rubbish! It's parents eve next week so might discuss this strategy.

OP posts:

InTheLabyrinth · 12/10/2021 19:13

Yep, maths isnt great. Better this year where they are back in sets for maths (and comprehension) so there is less recap and less teaching, and more doing.
However, we stretch at home. Nrich is good, as are the CPG stretch books - we have stuck with year group, and the topics are correct, but they do exactly what they say, and stretch the topics sideways a bit.

Original poster

CurlyMcCurlFace · 12/10/2021 19:31

I'm able to support him at home, my question really is should I keep chasing school - should I escalate to a complaint? Or is this pretty much the way it is with a more able child?

OP posts:

Takeachance18 · 12/10/2021 20:42

They are limited what they can do to stretch beyond the year with the curriculum, it is greater depth, not higher. It is a bit like a child at the bottom, in a class of 30, difficult to differentiate so they get the support they need and time required. If in independent sector, there is more potential to teach beyond the curriculum year group, as not inspected in the same way.

MalteseBubs · 12/10/2021 21:12

For my DS they just gave him more difficult questions by Yr 6 they were giving him GCSE questions. Normally it was just extra questions on a sheet of paper which he was quite happy with. They did however have a teacher who volunteered to look out for the G&T children. Not all state schools I guess are able to devote their time to this.

MalteseBubs · 12/10/2021 21:14

It's not really up to the School to do anything as their job is to look after 30 different children of all abilities and ensure they are all at the standard level required.

MalteseBubs · 12/10/2021 21:16

@CurlyMcCurlFace

I'm able to support him at home, my question really is should I keep chasing school - should I escalate to a complaint? Or is this pretty much the way it is with a more able child?

Why complain they're not doing anything wrong. You're being unreasonable and entitled. It's up to you to do any extra work you feel he needs outside of the classroom

MalteseBubs · 12/10/2021 21:18

I have to add that my DS would find the more difficult work to do himself at home online he didn't need me. A truly gifted child is self taught and will find out how to do these things themselves.

noworklifebalance · 12/10/2021 21:57

I’d be worried that he is “bored to tears” at school. I sympathise with the teachers but whilst he may not make a fuss now, things may change as he gets older. Not sure what the solutions is within the constraints that the teachers are working under.

PeachesPumpkin · 12/10/2021 22:07

YABU OP You need to be realistic on how much a teacher can do in a class of 30 odd children and also how much support a child who is already ahead, and being taught at home, really needs.
The children who really need support are those who are at the bottom. It’s more important to help bring the lower ones up to a decent level - basic maths and literacy are essential for success in life. Those who are already ahead are already doing ok.
Let the teacher concentrate her efforts here she can do the most good and make the most difference.

MrPickles73 · 12/10/2021 23:16

I don't agree that the teacher should spend all their time on the bottom group and the top children should spin their wheels. How is that 'fair'. We moved schools in the end for this very reason.

LondonGirl83 · 13/10/2021 01:25

@MalteseBubs

It's not really up to the School to do anything as their job is to look after 30 different children of all abilities and ensure they are all at the standard level required.

That’s not true. Schools have a requirement to differentiate work for the most able. It’s part of now they are assessed.

LondonGirl83 · 13/10/2021 01:33

@CurlyMcCurlFace it really depends. Most schools can differentiate work for the top 10 percent of the ability range through challenges. However due to budget constraints providing additional stretch for the top 1 percent of the ability range is much harder for even very good schools to do. If your son falls into the latter category I’d try to work with the school to come up with ideas.

It’s well studies that very gifted children do start to get bored at around this age and can start to act up and disengage with school of the appropriate challenge isn’t available so I’d try to work with the school on ideas. More investigative or open ended challenges would be a start. Racing ahead with the curriculum might only make things harder. At home think of other sideways stretches like learning an instrument rather than more academic work if possible. It’s difficult so good luck

foxgoosefinch · 13/10/2021 01:37

Following as DD is similar and has been saying she is getting even less greater depth & challenge work this year than last!

ThirdElephant · 13/10/2021 01:39

@MalteseBubs

I bet that was a while ago. We used to be able to do that but nowadays we're told to keep them within the content for their yeargroup, which is all well and good but with the best will in the world there's only so much stretching you can do within the curriculum.

Lockdowndramaqueen · 13/10/2021 06:58

Try wildmaths

Agree with others they don’t have the resources any more to stretch the very top. You may have to temper your sons expectations and do the conceptual stuff outside school. Secondary will be better because most set for maths and the range of abilities is wider with more kids at the very top and specialist teachers. I think post Covid so many children have ground to make up that this problem may even be worse right now than in normal times but as pp said ensuring the majority meet the basic standard is more important than proving constant stretch for your child - harsh as that sounds.

You could offer to run a club for able mathematicians. I did something similar for able readers when my dc were little and the kids that came loved it.

Original poster

CurlyMcCurlFace · 13/10/2021 08:20

Ok this was helpful - sometimes a little harsh (I specifically posted asking what was reasonable) but mainly helpful. I will discuss appropriate worksheet stretch challenges with the teacher but not expect actual teaching. I will also remember the greater depth/sideways stretch principle which I did already know but is easily forgotten.

OP posts:

lanthanum · 13/10/2021 10:25

I think very often the teacher just has no idea how far ahead a strong child is. We were told (in the days of national curriculum "levels") that DD was "a strong level 4", to which I said that I thought she was a strong level 5 (I was a maths teacher), but they'd only ever tested her up to level 4. The next week, they threw a year 6 paper at a bunch of them and discovered that she wasn't the only strong level 5!

They did then start trying to give them something harder - although sometimes that was harder topics at pedestrian speed, which wasn't the right thing - they grasped the idea immediately and the worksheet then got boring. NRICH has some great stuff, and there are other "stretch" resources around, but it can be difficult for a non-specialist to select what will best challenge a very strong mathematician.

SeasonFinale · 13/10/2021 10:34

@MalteseBubs

It's not really up to the School to do anything as their job is to look after 30 different children of all abilities and ensure they are all at the standard level required.

Not true and the OP is definitely not being unreasonable nor entitled.

Definitely speak to the school and if no joy from the teacher do take it higher. There may even be scope for your child to join an older year group for Maths sessions. Plenty of people do that in other schools. My son was at a highly selective school where the odd couple of kids did gcse in y8, FM in y9, A level Maths in y11, FM y12 and preU y13.

If he is truly Maths talented he should be supported and even if not at that level he should not be left getting bored in Maths lessons.

languagelover96 · 13/10/2021 10:38

Find out what level she is at and take it from there. Make sure that the questions are appropriate and are ones which she can do comfortably as well.
Build upon them slowly too. Alternatively you could start up a weekly after school club for more able pupils in math. Or find a private math tutor for that extra push. You can even find past GCSE math papers online, take a look at some to see what type of questions are on there. More difficult or longer questions set for homework may make a difference. You could even print off old exam papers at home and have him complete them within half a hour then mark them together afterwards. But first do go in to talk to the teacher about what you can do to support him at home and also discuss this.

noworklifebalance · 13/10/2021 10:49

@MalteseBubs

It's not really up to the School to do anything as their job is to look after 30 different children of all abilities and ensure they are all at the standard level required.

How depressing

Mummy195 · 13/10/2021 11:23

OP have you checked your school website to see the different class time tables and set work for the year?

I ask because some schools uniformly do Maths and English at the same time for different forms, so they can move the more abled DC sit the higher levels. So if he is year 4, he can be moved to Y5 Maths and go back to normal class for other subjects.

Good luck

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