WWYD? - atheist surrounded by church schools

[helly29]

Hi all, I'd be interested in any thoughts on what you would do re primary applications in my situation. We're not religious so no christenings/church attendance etc. (didn't want to attend purely for school places on principle, too late now anyway!)

Moved last year, DC1 in y2 at a CofE school only 1.8 miles away, but we live out of the usual catchment area (in year admission, only school with place in his year).

Now applying for DC2 to start in Sep 2022.
First choice is obviously same school as DC1, but admissions criteria put religion above siblings so stressing out a bit.

Closest schools:
Catholic school 0.25 miles away - but non religious category 8 on admissions policy (bottom of the pile)
CofE 1 mile away - last year furthest child admitted 0.92 miles from school
Closest non-religious school 2 miles away - very little chance of getting in.

Have to put three choices - what would you put as 2 and 3?

I would never normally consider a catholic school but may have to suck it up if it's the best thing for them (if they even get in )

Also anyone have experience of appeals success getting children into sibling's school?

Frustrated with the system right now.

Thanks in advance

What an iniquitous system that such schools even exist in the state system. WE need to be like France where the separation of church and state is enshrined in law.

This is so wrong that you cannot find a non-aligned school for your child.

We are all contributing to these schools, whatever our religious views so they should all be open to everyone, and they should teach about religion but not propagate one as the truth above others.

I agree wholeheartedly. I could even just about accept them being run by churches if the admissions weren't allowed to be driven by religion. It feels very discriminatory that we are the bottom of the pile in all of our nearest schools.

Faith schools vary widely in how "faithy" they are - how is the one your DC1 is at? Are you happy with the level of worship etc.?
Can you view the nearby RC school and compare, as you already know roughly what DC1's school is like?
They will obviously have to find your child a place (and if you are e.g. in a London borough with massive oversubscription they will be building a new Reception class in one or other school once they work out how much oversubscribed they are).
So they will have to give you closest RC OR closer CofE OR community school (unless there's an undersubscribed school you haven't mentioned? you could look up the PAN and the numbers on roll to get an idea - if such a school exists it would be helpful to know about it/view it).
If you do genuinely prefer DC1's school you can put it down first and then appeal/go on the waiting list/transfer in year (if you are in an oversubscribed area, it's also likely you are in a high mobility area).

I'd put the three nearest schools for your choices regardless of religious nature as you stand a better chance of a place.

We have church schools because they were set up and paid for by the church to provide education for the masses long before the government got round to providing schools so they are a legacy from that time. Of course when state education was introduced the government could have built new schools but decided instead to use the church schools already there. The building and land is owned by the church but in some the staff salaries are paid for by the LA. Like many things they exist because it's cheaper for the government.

Thanks all, I'll go and visit the RC one to get a feel, looks like it will be best to put it down in case.

@drspouse - I don't think there are any routinely undersubscribed schools nearby, as I called/emailed every school in the town and surrounding areas last year when looking for DC1, and only that one had space (and apparently his year group is an anomaly, and they are usually oversubscribed). But I'll check again as you never know.

We are lucky that all of the local schools are decent, so not overly worried that they will have a terrible education, but don't want to have to get sent miles and miles away.

Fingers crossed that there's not loads of religious families applying to DC1 school this year!

Religion is usually the top criteria for faith schools but I’d imagine it is rare that a class is full of children from the ‘correct’ religion.

My DC go to a Catholic school but it’s considered rare for more than a third of the class to be Catholic.

From a practical point of view. How would you manage with two children in different schools? So maybe look at start/finish times, breakfast/after schools and how close the other schools are from your DC school.

I went to a CofE school. We went to church for occasions like the harvest festival, the vicar came to do assemblies sometimes and we sang hymns but other than that there was no real emphasis on religion. It was nice to do those things.

We also had school trips where we learnt about the other religions.

I'm very much an atheist, as are my parents and siblings.

I'd put the Cof E choice first. I really wouldn't want my child to go to a catholic school as we are atheist and I think Cof E is much more relaxed .

Really appreciate your advice :)

DC2 currently in nursery so we're already doing separate drop-offs/pickups and manage ok, though nursery is local.

I went to a CofE school myself, and whilst I may roll my eyes sometimes I don't have a major problem with the CofE faith content, it is fairly laid back. I also try to ensure I'm respectful about faith, as we have religious family members, and ensure DC know they can make up their own minds, but this is what I think etc...

So I've made my peace that they will go to church schools, it's just the feeling of having much less choice about something as fundamental as place of education, purely because we're not religious, doesn't sit right. Access to other public services couldn't be legally limited by faith or lack of, so why this?

Anyway, rant over - thanks all for your input, lots to think about!

The CofE school that I am a governor of is set up to serve the local community, so siblings and distance are the main criteria.

Jesus. This so many levels of wrong. The state is funding schools that prioritise what particular brand of fairy at the end of the garden a parent pretends to believe in over whether a child has a sibling at the school. When having children at the same school may well have a profound impact on the family in terms of enabling parents to work, reducing childcare costs, and minimising the environmental impact of school runs.

Depends how many Catholics there are near you or how good/popular the schools are.

My DC go to RC schools and they are heavily over-subscribed so there are no non-Catholics.

But I know some Catholic schools take non Catholics so you might be in luck.

Also check the school holidays to see if they are the same as DC1 school. My children go to catholic school and they can be different to the rest of the LA school.

We had this - we moved.

Some C of E schools allow you to opt for your child to not take part in religious bits (eg saying the Lords Prayer).
The problem is most kids just want to fit in so you might have to tolerate your child coming home and singing about Jesus.

Access to other public services couldn't be legally limited by faith or lack of, so why this?

It's not that you won't get a place there, just that others of that faith are prioritised. It's because those schools are either part-funded (in the case of Catholic or Voluntarily Aided CofE schools) or because the church owns the building and/or land (in the case of Catholic, VA CofE and Voluntarily Controlled CofE schools).

@Iamnotthe1

Access to other public services couldn't be legally limited by faith or lack of, so why this?

It's not that you won't get a place there, just that others of that faith are prioritised. It's because those schools are either part-funded (in the case of Catholic or Voluntarily Aided CofE schools) or because the church owns the building and/or land (in the case of Catholic, VA CofE and Voluntarily Controlled CofE schools).

The churches are providing less and less of the funding www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/faith-schools-funding-money-religion-voluntary-aided-accord-coalition-a9192296.html

Personally, I think if the church is providing 10% capital costs, they should only get control of 10% of school admissions

Not if they also own the land and/or buildings, which the vast majority do. The Government could absolutely abolish the religious priority in admissions but only if they bought all of the schools from the churches first and that's not a priority for them to spend on.

How can it not be discriminatory? It means a Muslim family for example have much less choice of schooling than a Christian family? Any other aspect of life you quite rightly can't pick someone because they are Christian. It's shocking.

I don't know. As an atheist I wouldn't ever put my child in a religious school, even if that meant moving or driving them several miles away.

Some C of E schools allow you to opt for your child to not take part in religious bits

Not just some schools. You have the legal right to opt your child out of RE and collective worship at any school.

Access to other public services couldn't be legally limited by faith or lack of, so why this?

Several points here...

Faith schools not allowed to make subjective judgements about faith or lack thereof. They must use objective measures such as regular church attendance.

Faith schools do not completely exclude children who don't meet the faith requirements. That is not permitted. If there are fewer faith applicants than places, the remaining places will be offered to non-faith applicants. Of course, the fact that faith schools are popular can mean that they fill up with applicants meeting the faith requirements, so people who aren't willing to attend church for a while won't get a place. However, an increasing number of CofE schools reserve a proportion of places for non-faith applicants.

As Iamnotthe1 points out, the land and buildings for faith schools are almost invariably owned by the church. The church also contributes towards capital spending for VA schools (all RC schools and some CofE schools are VA schools).

The reason this is unlikely to change is simple - cost. If faith schools were prohibited from prioritising applications on faith grounds, all RC schools would close. We may also see the closure of some CofE schools and schools of minority faiths. It would cost the taxpayer a huge amount of money to build or buy the schools needed to accommodate the displaced pupils. Given that faith schools are popular with parents, forcing through the necessary tax increase to fund such a policy would be politically challenging for any government.

I wouldn't put the catholic school down at all.... worked at a pre-school attached to one for a while and it was hideous.... they had full on church services in the school everyday and proeprly indoctronated the children.

I don't think any school should have religious bias either! Most of the time, the people that qualify on religious grounds have literally gone to church for the stipulated amount of time so they get in and never again so it's pointless anyway!

@Mischance

What an iniquitous system that such schools even exist in the state system. WE need to be like France where the separation of church and state is enshrined in law.

This is so wrong that you cannot find a non-aligned school for your child.

We are all contributing to these schools, whatever our religious views so they should all be open to everyone, and they should teach about religion but not propagate one as the truth above others.

@Mischance Totally agree. We were lucky in that there were good church and non church options for us and we chose the non church option every time and got great primary schools. Feel so sorry for people in an area without decent non church options or where it means if you aren't religious you are at the bottom of every school's list. Outrageous in this day and age when only only a tiny percentage of the population is actively religious (as opposed to vaguely CofE but never go to church)

I totally agree with everyone saying that the faith school system is unfair.

In response to the op, would you prefer both children to go to the non religious school two miles away? If so, can you check how likely you are to eventually get a place for your older DC if you were to go on the waiting list? If that it likely within a reasonable amount of time then I'd put that school first, and add dc1 to the waiting list. If the non religious school is close to your older child's school, and you could easily coordinate drop off and pickups, then I would also put it first.

Otherwise I would put dc1s school as first choice.

Bear in mind that having two different school drop offs isn't the same as having a school and nursery in different places, because nursery hours usually are different to school hours, and it doesn't matter if you are late for drop off or early for pickup.

How very dare the church provide free education for the poor at a time when the government didn’t.
And keeping their own buildings running, and continuing to provide schooling - shocking. Almost as bad as their massive charity work and support of the marginalised throughout the world. One can see why atheists hate them so much. Oh, wait…