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Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

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Original poster

What happens if I refuse to take my ds to the school we end up with?

39 replies

mum2oliver · 05/12/2007 13:22

My ds nearest school is a really bad school.We live almost the same distance away from about 4 other schools.I have put down 3 of those schools and they are all oversubsribed.Could I end up being given none of my choices and end up with rubbish one?
And-What would happen if an appeal failed and then I flatly refused to take him to the rubbish school?

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morningpaper · 05/12/2007 13:24

You'd have to come up with an alternative - homeschooling I assume?

S101 · 05/12/2007 13:26

Well if the school in the nearest and the others are oversubscribed then you can appeal. They will consider who lives nearest, siblings within a school, or any special needs that the child might have.

Unfortunately it is really down to location and to be fair it should really be the nearest child to the nearest school.

You can and should try to appeal.

deckthehallswithFEETofTIGERs · 05/12/2007 13:27

It is a possibility that you could end up with none of your choices and you are offered a place at the school you don't want. You can appeal against the decision if that happens although most appeals aren't that successful. You don't legally have to send your son to school until the term after he turns 5 so that buys you some time if you need it, to get a place at one of your preferred schools if someone leaves.

You always have the option of home educating him if you don't want to send him to a particular school and have no alternative. I'm afraid you will have to ask others how this works though as I have no idea!

I sympathise completely. We are in an identical position. All we can do at this point is hope for the best.

Original poster

mum2oliver · 05/12/2007 13:33

Oh yeah I did forget about that.I will just wait for a place then.He doesnt have to start in reception does he.Will he be able to stay at his playschool or not?
I suppose I will need to ask.

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newgirl · 06/12/2007 13:34

loads of places come up after the first allocation of places - people move/go private etc so if you dont get a place you want put name on continuing interest list - it might work out fine

Ubergeekian · 08/12/2007 19:05

It's an unfortunate and infuriating asymmetry.

The system insists that you send him to school (or HE) and will punish you if you fail to do so. However, there is effectively no comeback whatsoever against schools and teachers who fail in their duties once they have the child in their hands. Parents are fined for taking children on holiday during term time ... but when was teacher, or a head, or a CEO last fined for turning out 20% of illiterate children from primary school?

Waste a week of school time ... £100 fine. Waste six years of school time ... nothing.

Grr.

And ... relax.

Could you bribe him to play up and get excluded from the rotten school?

seeker · 09/12/2007 06:13

Are you absolutely sure it's rubbish? I'm sure you have, but have you spent time in the school during a normal school day - talked to children and other parents...sometimes schools that look awful on paper are actually fine when you see them working and have excellent reasons for the less than brilliant results.

bealcain · 09/12/2007 07:51

if you dont want to take him to the rubbish school and the others are over subscribed your only option is to homeschool. it is a viable option and you cannot be punished for it. you could try HSing for the first year, but have ds name on waiting list at all the other schools, you should find that he'll get a place within the year (hopefully) if HSing is not an option then you've got no choice but to send him to the rubbish, but in the same way you could put his name on the waiting lists and then move him.

Original poster

mum2oliver · 10/12/2007 21:57

How do I home school?
Can anyone tell me about this?
I wouldnt dream of doing it.I think a child would miss out on so much,or am I wrong??

OP posts:

Saturn74 · 10/12/2007 22:00

have a browse through the home ed topic

PortAndLemonaid · 10/12/2007 22:05

If you approach it properly (including getting in touch with other local homeschoolers for the social side) children needn't miss out on anything much. There is a home education topic on MN or check out www.educationotherwise.org.uk.

LaylaandSethsmum · 10/12/2007 22:16

He has to be in some form of education by the time he's 5 which would happen during his reception year. He has to go to school or you have to officially remove him from that system and home ed.

Friends of ours appealed against the fact they didn't get their 1st choice , they got their third but their DS had to start the 3rd place school while the appeal was going on, they felt home ed wasn't an option for them and he had to go somewhere. They eventually got their 2nd option of school.

Why is your nearest school a really bad school?

Original poster

mum2oliver · 10/12/2007 22:24

This will sound so bad and Im so not a snob.
Its in a really bad,poor council estate.I myself was brought up on the same type of area.
There is a high amount of children that start and leave mid-term.Most kids are on free school dinners.When starting at the school the children are not at the standards they should be and still dont get to the standards they should be at by the time they leave.The small amount of kids that want to achieve and could do well dont get the necessary support.They are held back.
We live on the outskirts of the town on a new estate and its the nearest school to us.

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Blu · 10/12/2007 22:30

Another alternative is to put down a fourth choice of school which is somewhere else - maybe a bus ride away.

But don't despair - places come up even within the first couple of weeks of term - when parents have moved away and not bothered to tell the school etc etc.

LaylaandSethsmum · 10/12/2007 22:32

In some ways i do know what you mean. My DD goes to our local village school there are more than average 'undesirable families' although i personally don't think the amount of free school meals is a true indicator.
Alot of my friends have sent their kids to surrounding 3 very small village schools, all the kids are from similar backgrounds etc.BUT I felt that I wanted my kids to go to their local school, all the primary schools feed into the same secondary here so, at some point, the seemingly more 'protected' kids will have to learn to deal with the kids they don't get on with.

It may help if you go for a visit and see the head, if you are going purely on word of mouth and ofsted reports then you need to see it for yourself.

coldtits · 10/12/2007 22:34

Free school dinners is not an indication of how well a child is being taught, and although I am sure that, as you say, you are not a snob, you certainly sound like one.

Original poster

mum2oliver · 10/12/2007 22:40

I know this is all very true.The school I really want him to go to is a biggish school and has a very good mixture of kids.I certainly dont want my ds to be sheltered from specific things or people or ways of life.
My town has alot of schools.All my 3choices are just the next closest and not that much further,its just they are so oversubribed.Like i said i dont mind if i get any of my choices.I just want one of them not none of them.

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Original poster

mum2oliver · 10/12/2007 22:42

Well u dont know me at all coldtits.Read what Iv put in a little more detail.

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UnquietDad · 10/12/2007 22:47

If you appeal, remember that the LA's hands are bound by the KS1 30-pupil rule. You have to present a case for a particular school which outweighs that in the eyes of the panel.

If you need any advice on appealing then give me a shout. We appealed twice - lost in Reception (before DD started) but we learnt from the experience, put together a much stronger case and won in Y1.

Original poster

mum2oliver · 10/12/2007 22:49

Thanku so much.Thats great to know as I just would not have a clue what to say on an appeal.Please expect to hear from me in April then.Cheers.

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coldtits · 10/12/2007 22:52

Children who are not hitting standard targets at 4 are not failing to hit the targets because of poor teaching - it will more likely be either a noneducational home background, or innate learning difficulties - those same children are going to be the ones who are not hitting standard targets at 11. But teaching cannot affect home background, and can only to a certain extent affect the impact of innate learning difficulties - so how are these teachers supposed to turn these children into 'achievers'?

I do understand your dilemma about the underachieving school, actually, because ds1 goes to one. The percentage of 11 year olds hitting the government target for English was 20% lower than any other school in the area ... the school has poor parental support. But then you have to factor in things like the percentage of children with special needs who were taking those test - parents of children with special needs deliberately send their children to what is, on paper, a failing school, because it has the most experience and the highest calibre of early years and SEN teaching staff - it has to have.

Typically each classroom is 30% special needs. It is a lesson of inclusion at work - ds1 is making leaps at school - but on paper, the school is awful.

Were they to take a sample of a typical for another school range of learning abilities, they may find the standard test results a little more comparable, and the same may be true of your local school.

A race is only fair if everyone has the same distance to run. Some schools are 50m behind everyone else.

seeker · 10/12/2007 22:59

The one you don't like - what's it's ofsted like? What % of level 4s and 5s does it get in year 6? And, crucially, what's it's Value Added? It doesn't matter (sorry if I'm teaching my grandmother to suck eggs) what the standard at entry is, it's what they do with the material they get that's important. Because, if they add a lot of value, you can be as sure as you can be that they'll add value to your ds as well -even if he's starting at a higher point than a lot og his peers.

coldtits · 10/12/2007 23:10

well done Seeker, that's what I was garbling about. Except YOU didn't garble

bethelsie · 11/12/2007 20:27

how do you know that parents deliberately send children with sen to apparently failing schools. Are you a teacher yourself

Original poster

mum2oliver · 11/12/2007 20:37

i obviously live near the area so i hear things and its more about the behaviour at the school and like i said if my ds is doing well I dont want him to be held back.

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