Primary school appeal - distance

[Natashalee]

Hello,

I have seen a lot of brilliant advice on here and wondered if anyone could help 🙂

We were devastated not to have got our first choice primary school last week, however a neighbour down the road did get a place at the school. We have exactly the same circumstances (catchment, no siblings) so it would have come down to distance. After a lot of reading and research we have calculated they could actually be a matter of metres further than us. I say could be as the whole distance measuring system is a minefield for someone with absolutely no prior knowledge of this process!

As per the admissions policy of both the school we applied to and county admissions, distance is measured in a straight line, using the Ordnance Survey. We therefore used this and the National Grid references to calculate the distance of the two properties. What we found was if using postcode (we have different postcodes) it incorrectly shows their property as closer than it is and our property further than it actually is. When you pinpoint the exact locations on the map you can see by the road in front of our houses the distance is exactly the same, but when pinpointing the centre or anywhere around the boundary of the properties, ours is in fact closer.

I spoke to county admissions on the phone to ask about how distance is measured but to no avail. One person said it had been calculated based on postcode, however I don’t believe that was correct as the admissions policy contradicts this. I also asked what would happen in the case that two properties were exactly the same distance, but again nobody wanted to, or could, give an answer. I have also emailed asking a number of questions, as advised by school and county, but not had a reply yet.

I wondered if anybody had been in a similar position and if so what their next steps were. Does this sound like something that could be challenged via an appeal? We have a lot of reasons for wanting this school over the one we have been offered, which I won’t go into on here, I’m also aware these will not have any weight in an appeal, so am just concentrating on the admissions process itself.

I am also aware of using different points on the school and home properties, so calculated using every combination possible and every time we got the same result, we either appeared (at worst) exactly the same distance, to the metre, or we were closer by one or two metres. Might also be worth mentioning our development was built in the last few years, so on some maps we (both houses) show as the middle of a field 🙃

I know this sounds petty and quite ridiculous but we desperately want this school and it seems we have lost out on a place by a very minor ‘miscalculation’ or just bad luck potentially? Either way it doesn’t feel right. We won’t be told the waitlist details until week after next so I’m trying to prepare for every eventuality in the meantime.

Thank you so much for reading and for any advice you can give x

Does their different postcode put them in catchment? Odd if they're further away, though.
If distance is the first criteria and you really feel your home is closer it's worth a shot.

Hiya, thank you for commenting 🙂 we’re both in catchment, by postcode or actual address x

We won our appeal and I’m also a cartographer so wanted to offer some advice. What I found is that actually no one in admissions really understands how the distances are calculated. They just refer to “the GIS” which is just the software that does the calculations.

The grid reference used for the calculations is usually from the Royal Mail’s dataset of letterboxes. Both for the school and your home. Is that what you have been using? As long as the correct grid references were used for the calculations, The software really can’t go wrong. So definitely check them as a first step

Well, in that case it's more likely to be a miscalculation than just bad luck. Go for it, you've literally nothing to lose 🤞

Measurements are usually done using the Local Land and Property Gazetteer information which allocates every address co-ordinates (Eastings and Northings). It's worth questioning where the measurement of the school is, some can be to the school gate some can be to a centre point in the school. The admissions authority should be able to confirm your measurements and the furthest distance of offers in that admissions category

GreyhoundG1rl Thank you!🤞

PinchingShoe That’s really interesting, thanks so much. I have used the Ordnance Survey itself, as well as what3words to find our grid reference. I will definitely look into the Royal Mail’s dataset of letterboxes - is that information available for anybody to access? Could that be affected in any way by it being a new development?

Was your appeal related to distance, or something else (you don’t need to share if you’re not comfortable to) ☺️ Amazing news on winning it!!

Councilworker Thanks so much. I have asked those questions (on email so there is record of it) but nobody has replied yet

By all means appeal, but the chance of success is low. Alongside the appeal it's worth making peace with your allocated school. You can always try an in year move once they've started. Lots of people move in early years of school.

It could also be that the other family had a priority you aren't aware of and it had nothing to do with distance.

You're right to question what happens if distances are equal. Eg if 2 applicants live in the same block of flats

Good luck with your appeal.

I’d echo @Twizbe - are you 100% the neighbours didn’t have preference you weren’t aware of?

Otherwise, really you have nothing to lose but you should accept the place offered and appeal. It won’t hold against you & means your kid has a place in a school!

Thanks so much for your thoughts everyone. Yes we know they do not have any other factors that could have prioritised them, it purely came down to distance in a straight line from the school.

I really don’t want it to have to go to appeal but even if all the above means we are top of the waitlist, there is no guarantee of movement. The school’s intake is 60, half of which this year were siblings, and they have only made offers to those who put it as 1st preference, so I’m not pinning my hopes on there being movement x

But if the school has allocated all their places I don't really see what can be achieved from appealing (other than to be placed higher up on the waiting list) - there still won't be an available place if you were to win, not unless another child turns down their place. The school can't go over their published admission number, not without exceptional circumstances.

@pennylane83

But if the school has allocated all their places I don't really see what can be achieved from appealing (other than to be placed higher up on the waiting list) - there still won't be an available place if you were to win, not unless another child turns down their place. The school can't go over their published admission number, not without exceptional circumstances.

They can if there's been an allocation error.

@Natashalee Sorry I don’t want to send you off track by referring to letterboxes. Forget that, concentrate on finding out which grid references were used to calculate the distance. You can then use any mapping system to double check the correct ones were used. You mentioned that you were on a new housing estate. I’m wondering if it’s possible that the datasets used by the council aren’t 100% uptodate.

If there has been a mistake made I think you would get in without having to go to appeal - but I’m no expert on primary appeals. We won ours for secondary which is a lot easier

They won't have used postcodes. Those are far too inaccurate. They will have used a Geographic Information System (GIS) which will usually measure from a fixed point on your property to a fixed point on the school's property, but some LAs operate a little differently. It is very difficult to challenge straight line distance measurements.

If you would like to PM me the name of the LA involved I'll be happy to see what I can find out.

I'm no expert on school admissions but in terms of them being unhelpful when you've asked how they calculate distance I would recommend submitting it as a freedom of information act request.

@LemonCake79

I'm no expert on school admissions but in terms of them being unhelpful when you've asked how they calculate distance I would recommend submitting it as a freedom of information act request.

An FoI request will not be necessary. The information should be set out in their published admission arrangements. In any case, they are required to answer any reasonable question the OP asks to help her prepare her appeal.

@prh47bridge, it's more the questions OP says she has asked that the local authority either haven't answered or have given contradictory answers to.

My first thought was are you confident about where in the school site you are measuring too? The school site is usually larger than the footprint of a house, so the difference between measuring to the centre of the site, the main gate or a pupil entrance can easily give a few metres difference.

they have only made offers to those who put it as 1st preference

Just a general misconception, and you have no way of knowing this. The preference doesn't change the admissions, so if someone closer than you put it as third preference but didn't get their first two choices they would be offered the school before you (as you are further away) regardless of your preference.

@Natashalee

Thanks so much for your thoughts everyone. Yes we know they do not have any other factors that could have prioritised them, it purely came down to distance in a straight line from the school.

I really don’t want it to have to go to appeal but even if all the above means we are top of the waitlist, there is no guarantee of movement. The school’s intake is 60, half of which this year were siblings, and they have only made offers to those who put it as 1st preference, so I’m not pinning my hopes on there being movement x

Is it by coincidence that they have only made offers to those who put it as first preference? School admissions don't work by offering to those who put it first, then those who put it second, etc- if you put a school third and I put it first you will get a place before me if you meet the admissions criteria better (e.g. live nearer).

@Morfin - you can find out what the intake was on preference in our LA. They publish quite detailed admissions data on their website .. ours were published yesterday for the 2021 intake. You can see who was allocated by the various criteria, by the furthest distance, how many kids they took, if oversubscribed & which preference they were allocated in.

So, our top school we didn’t get into (but not unhappily in our case as we liked no.2 just as much) took all 30 of its PAN from first choice preferences this year. The school we got into took 18 from first choice and 2 from second choice ..

The OP has told me which LA is concerned. They measure by straight line from the address point of the home address to the address point of the school. The address point is provided by Ordnance Survey and is based on Royal Mail's list of postal addresses. They measure in miles to an accuracy of three decimal places, which equates to a little under 2 yards. It is very difficult to challenge measurements unless they have measured from the wrong address.

If there is a tie on distance for a community or VC school, the LA draws lots to decide who gets in. Other types of school may have their own policy for resolving ties.

I should note that it is possible the neighbour down the road got a place due to being in a higher admission category rather than being closer. If, for example, your neighbour's child is formerly looked after, they would get a place regardless of distance.

I think what OP is saying is that all 30 came from 1st choice which means parents are very unlikely to change schools as they all wanted that school as top choice!

[quote HolmeH]@Morfin - you can find out what the intake was on preference in our LA. They publish quite detailed admissions data on their website .. ours were published yesterday for the 2021 intake. You can see who was allocated by the various criteria, by the furthest distance, how many kids they took, if oversubscribed & which preference they were allocated in.

So, our top school we didn’t get into (but not unhappily in our case as we liked no.2 just as much) took all 30 of its PAN from first choice preferences this year. The school we got into took 18 from first choice and 2 from second choice ..[/quote]
Interesting, but the point still stands that they got in because of the admission policy not because of preference as preference is not an admission criteria