Primary school appeal - distance

[Natashalee]

Hello,

I have seen a lot of brilliant advice on here and wondered if anyone could help 🙂

We were devastated not to have got our first choice primary school last week, however a neighbour down the road did get a place at the school. We have exactly the same circumstances (catchment, no siblings) so it would have come down to distance. After a lot of reading and research we have calculated they could actually be a matter of metres further than us. I say could be as the whole distance measuring system is a minefield for someone with absolutely no prior knowledge of this process!

As per the admissions policy of both the school we applied to and county admissions, distance is measured in a straight line, using the Ordnance Survey. We therefore used this and the National Grid references to calculate the distance of the two properties. What we found was if using postcode (we have different postcodes) it incorrectly shows their property as closer than it is and our property further than it actually is. When you pinpoint the exact locations on the map you can see by the road in front of our houses the distance is exactly the same, but when pinpointing the centre or anywhere around the boundary of the properties, ours is in fact closer.

I spoke to county admissions on the phone to ask about how distance is measured but to no avail. One person said it had been calculated based on postcode, however I don’t believe that was correct as the admissions policy contradicts this. I also asked what would happen in the case that two properties were exactly the same distance, but again nobody wanted to, or could, give an answer. I have also emailed asking a number of questions, as advised by school and county, but not had a reply yet.

I wondered if anybody had been in a similar position and if so what their next steps were. Does this sound like something that could be challenged via an appeal? We have a lot of reasons for wanting this school over the one we have been offered, which I won’t go into on here, I’m also aware these will not have any weight in an appeal, so am just concentrating on the admissions process itself.

I am also aware of using different points on the school and home properties, so calculated using every combination possible and every time we got the same result, we either appeared (at worst) exactly the same distance, to the metre, or we were closer by one or two metres. Might also be worth mentioning our development was built in the last few years, so on some maps we (both houses) show as the middle of a field 🙃

I know this sounds petty and quite ridiculous but we desperately want this school and it seems we have lost out on a place by a very minor ‘miscalculation’ or just bad luck potentially? Either way it doesn’t feel right. We won’t be told the waitlist details until week after next so I’m trying to prepare for every eventuality in the meantime.

Thank you so much for reading and for any advice you can give x

As prh47bridge says, for most schools (and certainly, on closer inspection, for this one) distance is measured from a data point at the school to a data point at the home. It’s always worth challenging an apparent error - I heard an appeal once where the LEA couldn’t find the home on the map and in error used a similar-sounding address at another location - but parents making their own measurement usually fail, because they don’t have access to the same GIS database and (say) walking the route with a trundle wheel (as another parent once did) will be nowhere near accurate enough.

And, yes, it’s an equal preference system so parents who made the school their first preference do not get first dibs.

If it's a new development then it's definitely worth checking that the Eastings and Northings are all sensible. Something could have gone wrong there.

My son was prioritised within category for primary admission. No one would've known that unless I'd told them- and I didn't tell many people for various reasons.

Just a thought but did you only put that school down?
Someone I know who lives within walking distance of the school didn't get in because she only put one school down in her application, she was told her application would have then been put to the bottom of the pile when they were sorting it out. Therefore her child didn't get a place.
They said you must always fill out all your preferences and not just put one school down.

@Thisnamewasnttaken123

Just a thought but did you only put that school down? Someone I know who lives within walking distance of the school didn't get in because she only put one school down in her application, she was told her application would have then been put to the bottom of the pile when they were sorting it out. Therefore her child didn't get a place. They said you must always fill out all your preferences and not just put one school down.

If she'd qualified for that school (and had put it on her application form, you don't make that part clear) she'd have got a place.

@Serafinaaa

My son was prioritised within category for primary admission. No one would've known that unless I'd told them- and I didn't tell many people for various reasons.

Same. You'd never know unless you knew us closely that we had a medical reason for my son to attend the school we put first.

@Thisnamewasnttaken123

Just a thought but did you only put that school down? Someone I know who lives within walking distance of the school didn't get in because she only put one school down in her application, she was told her application would have then been put to the bottom of the pile when they were sorting it out. Therefore her child didn't get a place. They said you must always fill out all your preferences and not just put one school down.

I think you have misunderstood here- you would go to the bottom of the pile for any schools other than the one you put down (i.e. anyone who actually listed the school on their form would get a place ahead of you) but only listing one school vs fully completing your form would not either advantage or disadvantage you in terms of getting a place at that particular one school.

Thank you again for all your comments, quite overwhelmed with how many people want to help and offer advice! Very grateful x

We put down 3 choices, first 2 catchment and the 3rd out of catchment. We only put those other 2 as we didn’t want it to come to having no place at all. We got our 2nd preference and sent the paperwork back today accepting the offer - as a few people have said it’s not wise to reject it until another place has been secured.

I had been looking at the Ordnance Survey as well as some other tools but not thought of Royal Mail - looked up our address today via Royal Mail off the back of the advice on here and it shows our address as diagonally across the road at another address, probably about 10 / 15 metres away. This still doesn’t confirm if this is how our address has been searched by Admissions - what are peoples thoughts on this?

I must admit I don't know how you look up an address via Royal Mail. However, most mapping products use postcodes rather than individual addresses. Is it possible that the point shown is the centre of the postcode?

You need to ask the LA to provide a map showing exactly where they measured from. If that reveals that they measured from the wrong place you may have a case. You only have a winning case if your child would have been admitted if they had got the distance right.

Thanks prh47bridge. I just went onto Royal Mail address finder, typed in the full address and clicked on show on map, which showed us in the wrong place. You could be right that this is the centre of the postcode, I’m just wondering if it’s possible it could have shown up as this location when Admissions was calculating distance? I also looked up the address of the neighbour who got a place and it shows them as a few houses out - so showing them as closer to the school and us as further than we actually are. I’ve put in a request to the post office to have our address corrected, but not sure how long that could take, especially at the moment.

What I’m not unsure of is what to actually use in the appeal as ‘evidence’. I have screenshots of the actual locations vs what the post office shows, showing the distances when using various locations on the school grounds (which obviously I don’t know how seriously they will be considered) so not sure what else to include. Any advice or thoughts on this would be amazing

To add to the evidence part - the distances measured were using the Ordnance Survey and National Grid reference finder. Just trying to be as detailed and as closely aligned with the system they use as I can, although this feels a bit pointless as they won’t confirm location used etc when I’ve asked those questions

Sorry also there were a couple of points raised about not knowing social / medical reasons for preference at that particular school - absolutely agree - however in this case we know there aren’t any which would put them higher in priority criteria x

It’s good you’ve accepted your offer, and can you add yourself to the waiting list for first choice while you work out your plan of action.

Worth asking the questions of how do they measure etc.

OverTheRainbow88 Yes absolutely, I’ve called county admissions and the school admissions to double check we are definitely on the waitlist.

I’ve tried asking both about how distance is measured but keep getting passed back atop the other saying it’s not their decision etc, so I emailed admissions to try get something on ‘paper’ - also so we could potentially then use that in the appeal. Just feeling a bit lost with it to be honest

@Natashalee

Thanks prh47bridge. I just went onto Royal Mail address finder, typed in the full address and clicked on show on map, which showed us in the wrong place. You could be right that this is the centre of the postcode, I’m just wondering if it’s possible it could have shown up as this location when Admissions was calculating distance? I also looked up the address of the neighbour who got a place and it shows them as a few houses out - so showing them as closer to the school and us as further than we actually are. I’ve put in a request to the post office to have our address corrected, but not sure how long that could take, especially at the moment.

What I’m not unsure of is what to actually use in the appeal as ‘evidence’. I have screenshots of the actual locations vs what the post office shows, showing the distances when using various locations on the school grounds (which obviously I don’t know how seriously they will be considered) so not sure what else to include. Any advice or thoughts on this would be amazing

It is indeed the centre of the postcode. It shows all addresses in the same postcode at the same location. This map does not use the address point information used by your LA's GIS system so it is highly unlikely that this is the location used by your LA for admissions purposes.

Screenshots of what the royal mail website shows will not be accepted as evidence. At the moment you don't have any evidence that they got the distance wrong and, just to repeat, it is possible that your neighbour got in through being in a higher admissions category rather than being closer.

Ask the LA for a map showing how they measured the home to school distance. If that shows that they have measured from the correct address you don't have a case, I'm afraid.

No matter what happens you need to make sure that the LA does respond to you. You need anything they say in writing. If it is a verbal answer, establish who it is you have talk to and then send them an email confirming what you believe was the substance of the conversation. They will respond quick enough if they do not believe what you say in the email is correct.
I would have to say that I do not know of any LA who uses postcodes for the distance measurement. The capability of the IT system from OS is such that they can measure distances down to 2 ft, which is why I would say you cannot argue against the distance itself. What you need to argue is that the LA have measured from the school "seed point" which is the same for everyone and that they have measured to the wrong home. If you have argued this in your written statement then the LA have to actually show that they have measured to the correct home, not just say it is correct, at appeal.
What I have noticed in your posts is that you have not said what the distance was. Does this mean that you do not know what the distance to your home is. If this is the case then you need to ask the LA for two things. Firstly the distance to your home and secondly the distance to the last person who was given a place. This information will have to be supplied at the appeal, so there should be no reason to not give it out before hand. Obviously if the distance seems longer than the distance you have measured that is more evidence that they have made a mistake and measured to the wrong home. If however the distance measured seems correct and is greater than the distance of the last person given a place then you probably need to accept that you have not been disadvantaged. Reality says you cannot challenge on the basis somebody down the road got in, as they are talking about your distance to the school as far as the appeal is concerned.

@Natashalee with your “incorrect “ location and your neighbours “incorrect “ location ( from the post office)- are you still further away than the neighbour?

That’s a good point by a pp. This isn’t about whether you are closer than your neighbour. It’s about what the furthest distance is for someone who got a place. And whether you are actually closer than that distance.

Out of interest, If you look at the website www.findmyaddress.co.uk/ and search for your address, is it in the correct location?

@prh47bridge thank you for looking into that, I'll scrap this reference from my appeal in which case. I will chase up LA today, really hope they come back to me soon as the appeal submission deadline isn't far off and I really want to be as prepared as I can.

@admission thank you for your thoughts, yes absolutely agree re getting things in writing. I do know the distance (measured at various points on property and school) but as these are just what I have calculated by dropping pins myself on the OS, I'm not sure how seriously these will be considered at appeal. As you say I need to get these distances confirmed by the LA - I will be specific about the two points you raised and add these to be email chaser today.

@Orchidflower1 the post office locations incorrectly show us as further away than we actually are and the neighbour as closer to the school than they actually are. I think I got my hopes up when I saw this as this would be a very obvious mistake! However it sounds like it is very unlikely this is how our addresses have been mapped by the LA so will have to disregard.

@PinchingShoe Yes absolutely agree - we need it confirmed by the LA what the furthest offer distance is for our priority group. Siblings out of catchment take priority for eg so this needs to be specific to our group.

There were also some questions around only 1st preference being offered places this year - I realise this isn't how admissions works however we know this is the case here as the head confirmed this last week. This has been the case for the previous two years too, as stated under admissions data on the LA website. So my thoughts are that this does reduce the chances of movement as all people offered have put the school as their preferred choice from the start

@PinchingShoe sorry, yes it does locate our house through this. I see the site is operated with OS - is this an indication of the result LA will have got?

Yes, if findmyaddress.co.uk has the correct location for your house it is likely that the LA's software will also have the correct location. There is still the possibility that the council entered your address incorrectly and measured from the wrong house, so you still need to get a map from the LA just to be sure. But I would say it is likely they've got it right.

Update: LA confirmed coordinates of the school and my house and that they calculated this to be a distance of 0.794 miles. When I entered these coordinates to gridreferencefinder.com it came out as 0.792. Is this to be expected with different software or should I just assume their system is more accurate?

They also confirmed last place offered was 0.791 miles.

When I enter our coordinates to OS it just shows us in a field so I'm not sure how I can check this, but the coordinates don't seem to match up exactly with my location as it shows on what3words or when I search my actual address (difference of 0.011 miles).

They are saying they can't provide maps of where they have plotted so I'm not sure how else to actually check this. Should I keep pushing for it to be shown on a map or just give up on this now?

They also said the system used to calculate is Capita One

0.794 to 0.792 miles is a difference of 3m. It sounds like you were 1.5m from the last distance - have you heard your waiting list position? You must be close to the top.

I don’t know the ins and outs of the systems and whether you can expect to see a map, but from what they’ve said you still would have been too far even if it was 0.792?

@EduCated Hiya, we haven't heard yet but I am really hoping that is the case - might at least be some hope then.

Yes totally agree. My thinking is if they've not plotted us accurately, it could also mean they haven't plotted the last person offered correctly at 0.791? We live on the same new development (if I am right in assuming it is my neighbour, who was offered a place) as their house appears further away than 0.791 on the map.

I realise these are such tiny differences but it means such a huge amount to us which is why I'm trying to find out everything I can