State vs Private (with discount)

[surreygirl1987]

Hello, after some advice. I know the state vs private debate has been done to death but I'd really appreciate opinions on my situation.

I'm a teacher and will be working in an independent school from September. They go from 4 to 18 and offer a hefty fee remission to children of staff. I have 2 kids not quite primary school age yet. Taking into account the cost or wraparound care in the primary schools we are looking at, we'd be paying £4k a year extra per child for private education... so £8k a year total. I realise that's a good price for private education but of course state education is free, and we are not made of money. For context, our joint salaries will be just under £100k a year and our mortgage will probably be £1600-1800 a month. We don't have expensive tastes and are fairly frugal but we do like to travel.

The reasons I would consider independent education are to give my children opportunities I never had. Having had a state upbringing myself, and then working in independent school, I see the difference every day. It isn't fair at all but I do want the best I can offer my own children and I have an opportunity here that we'd never be able to have if I didn't happen to work in this school.

Are we mad to consider paying £8k a year for 2 kids in private school?Are we mad not to? A couple of the local primary schools do look good. Ideally I would put my kids into the local primary school and then they'd go to the private school from Year 7, but it's much tougher to get in when they're older which is why a lot of parents choose to pay from Reception - its a through school. I don't want to regret not putting them in from reception, if there wasn't a place for them in Year 7. Equally though, what if I decide to move jobs or they don't get on at the school- I don't want to regret spending all that money.

Would appreciate any insight that would help us decide. Unfortunately we have to decide soon as it affects where we buy our house (house hunting right now) as its much more expensive to buy in the catchment areas of the better primary schools and we could get more for our money if we didn't need to worry about school catchments. What would you do?

@WombatChocolate
Yes I agree with most of what you say. Apart from the aspirations of fee paying schools pupils - I have seen some absolutely uninspiring, over privileged drop outs from fee paying schools both as a pupil myself and later in my work. Some of them have so much money they don't need a career and go to town on the social side of life (the drugs at my boarding school were of a very different calibre to those at the comp - think of the Made In Chelsea type of character...) some are so pressurised that they end up breaking from the weight of expectations from parents and their school and the fact that they must live up to the money spent on their education which is very difficult for some. They end up in gentler careers for the sake of their mental health. I know many of my peers who ended up like this - very academic but pushed too hard.
One of our babysitters a few years ago was aiming for Oxford from the comp, and she went and had a look and decided it wasn't for her - I suspect that sort of feeling has a lot to do with the take up from top state schools. I think some parents expect oxbridge in return for fees and children are aware of this from an early age and feel bound to live their parents dream- our babysitter had more freedom. She got the grades she would have needed for oxbridge but chose to go elsewhere instead where the course looked more interesting.

I was in a similar situation a few years ago. Happily looked around state schools in the local area for DS and found one that we were happy with. I didn't work there myself but I was a state school primary school teacher at the time. Then my parents offered to pay for DS to go to the private school along with his cousin of the same age. We did battle a little with the moral side of it but ultimately we felt we couldn't turn down such an amazing opportunity. I felt we would regret it if we did as we weren't able to offer DS that opportunity otherwise. The things that swayed us were:
1- the secondary schools where we live are terrible, we would have had to have moved to get into a good one. We live where we live and may not have been able to afford it later down the line. It's a big thing here with house prices through the roof as everyone tries to battle for a tiny catchment area or moves out of the city for the decent schools.
2- it would be easier to get DS into the school in reception. I know lots of people put them in later but we couldn't guarantee he would get in and we would be kicking ourselves for the missed opportunity if he didn't. Plus we had the reassurance that he was in and we didn't need to worry about secondary schools later on.
3- we looked around the private school and the facilities and the opportunities were amazing.
4- a big one for me. As a state school teacher I could see the way thing were going. Classes getting bigger, government funding getting less and less and only the very lowest children getting the support they should be. If DS was to struggle I wanted him to have the necessary support available.

As I said we did go back and forth on our decision but ultimately it was too good an opportunity to turn down. We have experienced some negative comments and raised eyebrows from others but I don't care. Those people who judge aren't friends and I am secure knowing what we did was right for our child. If it turns out not to be the right school for DS we would move him.

Yes, you are right.
I think I was focusing a little more on the bigger range of impacts state school can have on aspiration, particularly for those from less affluent backgrounds who might not have the parental push to do well.

You can be at some state schools and most are going to uni and it is simply the norm. These tend to be schools in more affluent areas (obviously generalising…but generally true). In such a school, a reasonably bright student might be boosted int eras of attitude and aspiration. This is also where independent schools can add the most value….the average/slightly brighter than average student (of which by nature there are many) can be boosted and in many cases, the most squeezed out of them via the smaller classes, targeted uni application process and focus on exam results. It is this kind of student who can easily fall by the wayside in a more middling/weak school. If the majority aren’t aspirational or the school isn’t highly focused on best next steps for progression rather than their personal school data, such students can become disinterested and easily underperform….this can mean moving from average results to less than average, or from the possibility of above average to average. It can mean being offered subjects at GCSE or A Level which don’t keep the doors open to the next stage, but which the school offers because if it’s cohort or because they will get results which look good in their data, rather than opening doors of opportunity at the next stages of life.

Many children in many independents are not super bright. The average IQ is a bit above national average and reflects the higher performance of the parents, but the schools are not full of super bright kids. But they over-perform and that’s what parents pay for. Many know little Johnny is reasonably bright but nothing really special. They know that if he is in a class of people who don’t try very hard, he probably won’t try hard either, but if he is with a group who are really focussed, he will achieve his best or possibly a bit more.

I think it’s true that the super super bright usually do well in most places. Even with poor teaching and discontinuity they might well do well if they are self starters. However, home life difficulties can scupper even the super bright. The bright can also do well in most schools. The question though is how well they do. Perhaps in some schools they will get a set of 6s and 7s, whilst if at a different school it would be 8s and 9s. And then we could be talking about the difference of Cs at A Level compared to Bs and As (which can mean very different uni opportunities). But in a weak school, even the bright might do okay or might slip and do poorly.

I’m at an age now when my friends’ children are starting to go to uni. My friends are from a variety of backgrounds but most are RG/Oxbridge uni educated and in professional careers. Most live in affluent areas and their kids go to either good state schools and have always had parental support and input, or they go to independent schools. I see a range of outcomes with most doing really well or pretty well at GCSE. At A Level there is a bigger range and whilst many go onto RG unis, quite a few have had to do some re-sits or wait a couple of years or have taken courses which aren’t so well regarded. Many have done less well than their parents in terms of academic performance. Again it’s a generalisation, but those who have been to independent schools or selective state schools have generally done better.

The other thing that is noticeable I think in all schools sadly, is the increase in mental health difficulties. So many kids seem to have complex issues now. These can ruin a phase of education for anyone is any school. However, I have also noted that often the independent schools have direct access to counselling support in a speedy way, that can make a difference. Perhaps those parents too are more likely to pay quickly and be able to access support, which can take so long to get via the NHS. I don’t know really, but I’ve seen mental health issues amongst a number of my friends’ children and broadly speaking, those in independent schools seem to have moved onto the next stage more smoothly…..but I accept this might just be chance amongst my group rather than anything else.

I think this is the big area of concern for parents. We all want our children to be well and whole and I think we value it more than academic achievement…but academic pressure splays a role in creating mental health issues amongst other things. If some schools can manage it better than others, they will have a big claim to advantage. I do t know if any sector or type of school is shown to be doing better than others in this area at the moment though, but I hope all schools and society will be able to find ways forward with this most serious of issues.

@WombatChocolate
Broadly agree apart from

• the better mental health outcome of independent students - I see through work the epidemic of anxiety and depression in pressurised children in London fee paying environments and grammar schools particularly. My niece (not London) has had two years out of school due to anorexia and anxiety caused by a super elective indie. Private therapists have waiting lists almost as long as CAHMS at the moment due to pandemic. No one is getting enough help.

• the comment about difficult family situations meaning super bright children don’t get support. Some of the friends I have with the most difficult backgrounds were from wealthy families at private schools. Parents taking drugs (usually cocaine but sometimes more insidious) mums with drunkorexia, parents living in other countries, high powered dads having multiple affairs, parents too busy with social lives, children home alone when both parents have very high powered careers and smoking drugs and having sex with friends in unparented houses. I often felt if these people were from low income families and lived in a council estate the social workers would be involved for general neglect. Definitely didn’t create stable children.

I would go for state. My experience of private is, despite paying, no additional support provided as would be outside of private schooling. Thus if child below the ‘higher flyers’ in a class you’ll need to supplement with a tutor. This is not just lower achieving or SEN children. A recent example from a colleague whose child attends private (similar situation) being that private home learning was weaker than what state provided.

What if you don’t like your job? You’ll feel pressured to stay. What if you lose your job? It’s a good deal financially compared to full cost, however it’s still £8k without add ons.

@WombatChocolate
I think this article in today’s Times is an example of what you were talking about - getting pretty average children on to courses that they aren’t cut out for. Pretty yucky, almost third world style corruption.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/schools-lobby-oxbridge-for-private-pupils-zqpghqcl5

Your income is around £100k and you are still thinking if 8k worth to pay for the independent school education?
Next year we will pay 17k for my older daughter and 12k younger. I am not working and my husbands income is not higher then 100k. We are working for them, we live for them- to give them best we can. OP, this is a old thread hope you did choosed independent option. Best luck