State vs Private (with discount)

[surreygirl1987]

Hello, after some advice. I know the state vs private debate has been done to death but I'd really appreciate opinions on my situation.

I'm a teacher and will be working in an independent school from September. They go from 4 to 18 and offer a hefty fee remission to children of staff. I have 2 kids not quite primary school age yet. Taking into account the cost or wraparound care in the primary schools we are looking at, we'd be paying £4k a year extra per child for private education... so £8k a year total. I realise that's a good price for private education but of course state education is free, and we are not made of money. For context, our joint salaries will be just under £100k a year and our mortgage will probably be £1600-1800 a month. We don't have expensive tastes and are fairly frugal but we do like to travel.

The reasons I would consider independent education are to give my children opportunities I never had. Having had a state upbringing myself, and then working in independent school, I see the difference every day. It isn't fair at all but I do want the best I can offer my own children and I have an opportunity here that we'd never be able to have if I didn't happen to work in this school.

Are we mad to consider paying £8k a year for 2 kids in private school?Are we mad not to? A couple of the local primary schools do look good. Ideally I would put my kids into the local primary school and then they'd go to the private school from Year 7, but it's much tougher to get in when they're older which is why a lot of parents choose to pay from Reception - its a through school. I don't want to regret not putting them in from reception, if there wasn't a place for them in Year 7. Equally though, what if I decide to move jobs or they don't get on at the school- I don't want to regret spending all that money.

Would appreciate any insight that would help us decide. Unfortunately we have to decide soon as it affects where we buy our house (house hunting right now) as its much more expensive to buy in the catchment areas of the better primary schools and we could get more for our money if we didn't need to worry about school catchments. What would you do?

It really is a no brainer. Only reason I work where I do.... occasionally I’m tempted by another job but not enough to take a £11k pay cut!

Thanks. Really helpful insight. I am leaning towards the 'no brainer' side of things actually... it really is an utterly bargain... but my husband is in the other camp and thinks there is no point spending money when we can get a decent education for free. It's ironic as I'm usually the more frugal one and he is usually quite free and easy with money. Still not decided but looked more seriously into one of the state primary options (only a 5 mins drive from my school) and actually it is very academic and quite a lot of pupils apparently go on to the independent school I'll be working at (for year 3 or year 7 entry) so the teaching must be decent enough to get them in... that might be what we end up compromising with. I don't know. I'd happily spend the money and make sacrifices elsewhere but it has to be a joint decision. And my husband is right that there's always the risk of not liking my job or wanting to leave, and then feeling trapped as the children's education depends on me staying there... very frustrating.

It’s a wicked bargain, your children will receive a great education, and logistics will be easier. What’s not to like? I’d start them at the independent school as soon as they are eligible.

You've not started working there yet. Just suppose you hate it? Or just see another job that would be an ideal next step in three years' time? You're then stuck in the position of not being able to move job without pulling the kids out too. It might be better to start them off in the local primary, and consider moving them later if you're absolutely sure you're going to stay put.

Controversially I would go state for infants at least. Yes it's a huge discount but still a lot of money.

I went to private (from 4), I had several friends who's parent/parents were teachers in the school. We even got taught by them sometimes which was never an issue. I'd go for it.

I would just sick it up if I didn't like the job. It's the best thing for the children and it isn't forever.

*suck it up...I sounded like a cat with a hair ball!

A couple of points I would consider are whether they will want a change at 11, and whether it’s hype or reality about how hard it is to get a place after YR. from my experience, quite a few dc in all through schools want a change at 11, with the option of new friends etc. And I do think that parents tend to over-egg the awfulness of the 11+. As a teacher at the school you would be very well placed to tutor them.

Re the local primary - lots of kids going to the private at Y3 or Y7 may not necessarily indicate good teaching. Lots of parents are probably (paying for) tutoring outside of school. Particularly for 11+ - few state schools teach for 11+ exams unless you are in a grammar area.

That is true. Then again, I'd be happy to pay a bit for tutoring if I wasn't paying private fees (and could do some of the tutoring myself). You are correct it might not indicate great teaching. Then again the same can often be said for the private preps too. Hmm.. thanks - something to consider.

How good is the private school? Just because it's private doesn't mean its academically better than the state...we have found this sadly! One of the teachers at our school had her children in the same school as she teaches at but she has since pulled them and moved them to a different private school. She didn't want them in the same school she teaches in....and there are bigger issues at the school I think which also probably played a part.

I'd look into how good this school actually is before you make your decision!

Thanks @Bubble14. Good advice, but I looked into it carefully before I applied for the job and it's super. I have worked in the private sector for more than a decqde and am definitely aware that there are some very low achieving private schools! It's not as academic as the one my husband works in which must be one of the most academic in the country (another option for fee reduction I guess!) but we wouldn't want them to go to a hot house environment like that - my one gets excellent grades (at senior level at least) but is also an all round fantastic experience. It's exactly the sort of school I would have picked for my boys if we had loads of money and I wasn't a teacher. I admit I don't know as much about the junior department, but from my experience (I currently work at a senior school with a linked prep) that's quite hard to tell anyway as there are no external exams so comparisons are difficult to make. The quality of pupils coming up from juniors into year 7 is probably the best indicator.

@Liverbird77 haha 'sick it up' made me smile

Friends did this. They are both public sector. When one got a job at a private school they moved the children there too. They love it and everything is easier. And dont forget holidays are longer and booking themnis cheaper as they are outside of state school holiday time. They will both then go to the local outstanding state high school.

That's great, it sounds fabulous definitely go for it!

@surreygirl1987 honestly, the typos I produce on here are hilarious.

Good luck with it all.

The only way I would happily go back into teaching would be for a fee reduction!

DS 11 attends the independent school that I work at. His father is also there and has a senior role.There are a number of staff children enrolled too. I would say it is fine for the right child. By that I mean, well behaved and reasonably able ( but not too able!). If they are difficult, colleagues will not confront you about issues, rather talk behind your back. Over the years, I have seen this happen time and time again. DS loves his school at the moment but we have always said we are happy for him to move to the local state school if he wishes. I hope he doesn't move as the opportunities are greater where he is.

I worked at a private school years ago and agonised over this option. I didn't put my DD in at the time as it was still quite a lot even with a discount. I was REALLY glad that I didn't because I hated working at the school and left after a couple of years. I would consider enrolling my children at a school I worked at but only if I had been there a couple of years and was certain that I was happy to work there long term.

I faced this exact scenario two years ago (also teacher in a through school). In the end my eldest daughter didnt get a place at our nearest state primary so we sent her to the prep. I don’t regret it at all and her sister will join her in September. I tell myself that if I can’t stand working at the senior school after 5 years, they can still go to state secondary. Make hay while the sun shines

Ooh... some very very interesting points. Yes re behaviour - too soon to tell perhaps but I do fear my oldest may be a bit of a ringleader, based on nursery behaviour. Not ideal. @stayingHere and @hellowembley thanks, good alternative points to consider!

It’s interesting, because as you say, it might be a big discount, but it’s still £8k a year you don’t have to pay.

Personally, I would look very closely at the state schools and I think I’d be keen to start off there if it’s logistically doable. Even if you do ‘state til 8’ and move after yr 2 that’s a saving of £24k. However, if you’ll start state and always have an eye on things you don’t like and be thinking about getting out, maybe it’s best to start in the Prep.

We did ‘state til 8’ and moved into the Prep school, along with lots of other incomers who joined those who had been in the Prep-prep and boosted the year group size by about 1/3. Interestingly, of those who turned out to be high flyers, most had spent their infant years in state school. Their literacy and numeracy were excellent. They probably hadn’t had quite so much team sport or music, but at 8 it was an easy transition. I’d imagine those who move at this point are often pretty focused in education and those kids have had good parental input.

Re moving into seniors, it is often still possible to move into Prep in Yr5 and get the ‘wave through’ Into senior school, if it’s one that goes all through. You don’t have to have been there since the age of 2, even if they are keen to make it seem like this.

In the selective senior mine go to, about 1/3-1/2 come from state schools. Again, they are often the high flyers academically…..it’s self-selecting in that state parents don’t tend to put them in For the academic entrance exams u less they are doing well, whilst all the Prep children go for the selective school, even if they aren’t so bright. Unless the state school children have been involved in out of school team sports whilst in primary, it is harder to get selected for the higher hockey/netball/rugby teams against those who’ve been at Prep….they have just had so much more experience of competitive sport several afternoons a week and matches etc. It is noticeable that the top teams are dominated by Prep children, along with the odd state school sports superstar.

What did you decide in the end.

@WombatChocolate
You would be amazed at the number of bright children there are at a comp as well - with engaged parents too… go figure! And they do well, get great results, have interesting hobbies, play sport out of school. Having been privately educated myself I was utterly ignorant to the fact that there aren’t just very bright children at private schools and I got the shock of my life at university when I realised that my little protected world hadn’t shown me that there were some very very, very bright young adults who had managed to get equally good results as me in very different circumstances and they have gone on to have stellar careers. My children are in top sets at a run of mill comp surrounded by very bright and articulate teenagers.

Hoopa, yes of course.

The majority of the students on the top courses at the top unis were educated in state schools.

Some state schools have very middle class intakes and offer a fantastic education. The academics can be as good or better than at most independent schools. The facilities might not be as shiny, but the extra curricular offer can be impressive too. And many of the students at top unis on top courses are from those selective state schools or those which are indirectly selective because they are Church schools or located in more affluent areas with small catchments. But there are always students who went to the bog standard Comp and were the high flyers there, or also from the struggling school too. I am absolutely not suggesting that everyone in good unis is privately educated. That isn’t the case.

And for many of the middle class children in the really good schools, their academic outcomes from either state or independent might be pretty similar. At the very top end, we do know that some of the highest performing super selective state schools don’t get as many into Oxbridge as might be imagined, compared to the handful of very top independents. We also know that many of the not quite top independents manage to push the vast vast majority of their students into RG unis, in a way that many of the state schools won’t quite manage….that there can be a difference in expectation around this area. We also know that for a more middling student, the schools hey attend can make all the difference and they can be very influenced by their peer group and either rise up and perform better than expected, when lifted by their peers and surroundings, or sink into low aspiration if that is the norm. State schools could have either effect on middling children.

I agree though, that many independently educated students imagine that all state schools are the ghetto. When they get to uni and meet other articulate students from state schools, they realise they are just the same and often more clever. And when they visit them in the holidays, they realise that lots of them have grown up in similar houses and done similar activities growing up. This is all absolutely true. But it’s also true that they are meeting the top 20% or less of state school performers. Some will be from deprived areas or low performing schools, but most will be from affluent backgrounds.

I think someone said unthread that the gap isn’t actually between state and independent but between affluent and deprived opportunities.

I don’t have any personal experience of Independent education but given that you have said you definitely want them to go there for secondary and the fact that it opens up much wider house search I think independent would be a no brainer for me. You can also offset any savings on the house price and / or mortgage interest to the school fees.