Private primary or local friends

[CornieliusRevival]

Hello! We are starting to think about primary schools for my DD for next September. We could afford private for primary but the two that we like are not very local to us. The other option is the Ofsted outstanding CofE school. We are likely to get a place there as we attend the church next to it.

My DD is an only child. She seems clever (I am biased here), she is sociable and outgoing. I just wonder if, being an only, it would be better for her to go to a local primary so she had local friends or whether the smaller class sizes would be a real benefit. The private schools that we like are very selective so this decision may be made for us but any advice would be great.

Yes that’s true it’s not just the state primary thing ... but following from my own experience I put social opportunities and walking distance to school high priority. So chose two form entry with lots of kids living walking distance but sure some other schools we could have chosen have kids travelling much further and v small numbers etc
All horses for courses and also lucky to have choices here

I’m in the same boat right now, so reading this thread with interest.

I’m based in Scotland, and am dismayed by what I am learning, not so much about the standards of primary education, but the dearth of data about the standards of education.

Another factor I am pondering, which has not been mentioned on this thread, is: what is the economic impact of Brexit and COVID going to be on the quality of state provision?

We are sailing into a very different future, and this is influencing both my views about private education, and my level of confidence about my ongoing ability to pay for it.

When I started to really look at the differences in the levels of investment in facilities and class sizes in state schools compared to private schools, I felt very angry and very sad. It kills me that I feel I have to choose between quality education (at a level of sacrifice which is frankly slightly reckless) and community integration. I have a great fear that putting my son into private would lead to social alienation.

Libelula I'm also in Scotland and I can assure you that putting DD into private has not led to any social alienation. She has masses of friends outside school, only one of whom is in a different private school, while the others are all in the state sector. As I mentioned upthread, I also feel that she is (and we as a family are) well integrated into our community. But I hear you about the tremendous discrepancies between facilities and class sizes.

Many thanks for your comments @onlythewildones

It’s a huge decision, isn’t it? And I think so much depends on circumstances, and the child. I’m a widowed mother of a 4 year old, in Edinburgh, juggling the desire to work, with financial circumstances, and the emotional well-being of my child.

What I wouldn’t give for there to be excellent, rigorous, and child-centred education provided for working class children, replete with close attention and sporting facilities. That’s what every child deserves!

I teach in a good state primary in an affluent area. Many of the children in my class have parents who could easily afford private; a handful are going to private secondary schools next year. I myself attended a local village primary and then, aged 11, prep school followed by an expensive public school at 13. I am certain that I benefited massively from the experience of state primary and the children in my class going on to private schools will do as well. It’s so important to be able to mix with people of all classes and walks of life. You can’t get that experience in a private school. Primary school is about having fun, making friends and gaining a rounded education, which state primaries provide. It’s throwing money away paying for private education for small children when you have good local state provision available. As people have said it’s much harder for a child to switch from private to state later on if you find yourself unable to continue paying the fees.

@pleasehelpwi3 thanks for your comments.

Yes, my own experience was of very remote rural state primary, then a short stint at an island town primary, followed by single sex private. Memories of state school are fuzzy, and memories of private secondary schooling are far from being all positive. I had family problems too (who doesn’t) but I didn’t certainly leave school with that gloss of confidence and poise you’re supposed to have!

Out of interest, did you feel you benefited from your 13+ independent schooling?

Schools seem so crowded now, it’s the lack of outdoor space that worries me most. And the economic pressures about to hit the public purse.

I think I may just be over-worrying as the older single parent of an only child, when lockdown provides ample means and motivation for worry!

I enjoyed all the schools I went to, but wasn’t a natural fit with all the rah rah sporting types at public school. My parents moved around the world a lot and it was a perk- now done away with I believe- of my dad’s job to have the fees paid. Academically I was quite a high achiever I guess at school but now I earn by the far the least compared to less academic friends from school- I think they picked up the public school ‘poise’ much more than I did! What makes me smile is in my year there were quite a few people who are now famous/ almost famous and all of them gloss over attending public school in interviews. The most famous (think hip actor, BBC1 top dramas etc) says how much he dislikes it- not the impression he gave at school!

I do actually know none of the DC who got places at Oxbridge in DD's primary year were tutored! My DD was one of them. The other three girls were not tutored either. They went to the local grammar. The idea that bright DC cannot be taught to succeed without tutoring is ludicrous too.

I would not say DD is more polished than others. However she is confident - but she always was. What you choose as a career should suit personality. Some people simply do not need "polish". Others do.

Libelula I’m sorry to hear of your loss and it must be so hard making these decisions on your own. Just to pick up on your comment on outdoor space - I’m not sure if this is an option in the Lothians or if it would work with where you are in the city and your commute and so forth but on my part of Scotland a lot of people send their children out of catchment to a small country school. They often have their own woodland, obviously much smaller class sizes, etc. Possibly the state options available are more varied than you think - though this might not be relevant to your location. Good luck :)

@PresentingPercy I don't think it's impossible to get a place without formal tutoring, but you'd have to do tutoring at home. It may vary by area, its no longer the case that bright children will always get through on account of "just being bright". I have DC 4 years apart and even in that space of time, the way schools have to teach the curriculum and the format the exams take has changed massively. I think if you have uni age children, things have probably moved on since you went through the 11+ process.

I was really talking about tutoring for Oxbridge. However I rather think the Oxbridge bound types don’t need much tutoring. Time management in exams yes. Some content - yes. But not years of tutoring. The DC I know who suffered this didn’t do well at the grammars or in life afterwards. Just not happy DC. My DDs were never tutored at boarding school. Not a great deal has changed in my 11 plus county. Roughly the same proportions get in. Just sadly more tutoring!

@PresentingPercy

I was really talking about tutoring for Oxbridge. However I rather think the Oxbridge bound types don’t need much tutoring. Time management in exams yes. Some content - yes. But not years of tutoring. The DC I know who suffered this didn’t do well at the grammars or in life afterwards. Just not happy DC. My DDs were never tutored at boarding school. Not a great deal has changed in my 11 plus county. Roughly the same proportions get in. Just sadly more tutoring!

There is really no such thing as Oxbridge type. Any child of academic and reasonably involved parents has a good chance to get into Oxford/Cambridge/Imperial etc bar certain kinds of SEN. You do need tutoring to perform at an interview which has also nothing to do with academic success before or afterwards. The main reason why is the interaction you had with your parents throughout your life and expectations they set for you which goes way way beyond primary and secondary curriculum.

If you don't grow in an academic/professional family you hardly stand a chance.

@Mumbot345635

Ps there are a lot of assumptions on this thread that private education is actually better than state education - the quality of teaching is completely down to the particular school in question. Very much not all private schools have better teaching than stage schools - some private schools are awful (and yes some are brilliant).

Often though, the smaller class sizes and freedom from government initiatives allow for better teaching even if the teachers themselves are not better.

@pleasehelpwi3

I teach in a good state primary in an affluent area. Many of the children in my class have parents who could easily afford private; a handful are going to private secondary schools next year. I myself attended a local village primary and then, aged 11, prep school followed by an expensive public school at 13. I am certain that I benefited massively from the experience of state primary and the children in my class going on to private schools will do as well. It’s so important to be able to mix with people of all classes and walks of life. You can’t get that experience in a private school. Primary school is about having fun, making friends and gaining a rounded education, which state primaries provide. It’s throwing money away paying for private education for small children when you have good local state provision available. As people have said it’s much harder for a child to switch from private to state later on if you find yourself unable to continue paying the fees.

Some of this is nonsense. Of course you can mix with other walks of life in independent schools! I also disagree with state schools providing a rounded education. SATs year groups can really suffer.

There are some amazing pre preps and preps that teach far more holistically than state schools can ever be able to due to government restrictions. I’m not anti state schools (though I am anti quite a few practices and policies) but the generic way independents can be talked about is ridiculous.

My DD wasn’t tutored for any interview. The stats clearly show DC with very high intelligence don’t have anywhere near a reasonable chance of Oxbridge etc. For some subjects - yes. We are not an academic family. I think far too much stress is placed on tutoring. It works for some but at interview it’s sniffed out. How can tutoring prepare a candidate for everything that might come up at interview? It’s impossible.

My DC had a rounded education in a state primary. Sats takes over in y6. However in my county parents cared far more about the 11 plus! That took over some with the tutoring denying DC after school clubs and sports.

I would start with local primary and see how it goes. Then move if not happy or go private for secondary.

I went to 3 state primaries and 2 state comprehensives then oxbridge. School moves all due to moving house. I was deeply unhappy in secondary due to bullying, but that can happen in any school.

My sister - 6 school years below - did 2 state primaries, 1 comprehensive then moved private from yr9 as parents felt she ‘fell in with a bad crowd’ and academically was going nowhere. Went to Russell group uni. Was very happy at all her schools.

I would say that both of us had some local friends and some that were less local at both state and then sister’s private school.

My ds’ are at private school - DS1 moved there as local primary was too big, couldn’t meet his his needs (ASD) as despite their hard work teachers were just too stretched and he was unhappy. Ds2 now there basically for convenience and that the private seems so supportive of every individual and the curriculum is broad and deep.

Both my boys have friends from their private school within few mins walk from home, and most live within cycling range. Some live miles away, but not the majority. I think it is very variable depending on the school.

Oh, and to add to the oxbridge tutoring debate...

I was not tutored for oxbridge, just got in somehow, probably some sort of mistake or to fill a ‘woman from a rubbish school’ quota. This was 20yrs ago now.

I now teach oxford undergraduates.

To be honest, anyone at grammar/private/selective sixth form colleges (eg hills road Cambridge) will have oxbridge classes for preparation which is basically tutoring.

I have met only a very few people at oxbridge from ‘state’ schools who were genuinely from average/bog standard comprehensives. They are almost all from selective grammars or state sixth form colleges known for being selective or having a track record at oxbridge/medicine/top universities. Some who were in said state options for 6th form attended private schools until GCSE. I think it is mostly just aspiration and young people getting the ideas these options are possible and they should just have a go rather than lots of specific teaching per se.

@ChocolateHoneycomb

Oh, and to add to the oxbridge tutoring debate...

I was not tutored for oxbridge, just got in somehow, probably some sort of mistake or to fill a ‘woman from a rubbish school’ quota. This was 20yrs ago now.

I now teach oxford undergraduates.

To be honest, anyone at grammar/private/selective sixth form colleges (eg hills road Cambridge) will have oxbridge classes for preparation which is basically tutoring.

I have met only a very few people at oxbridge from ‘state’ schools who were genuinely from average/bog standard comprehensives. They are almost all from selective grammars or state sixth form colleges known for being selective or having a track record at oxbridge/medicine/top universities. Some who were in said state options for 6th form attended private schools until GCSE. I think it is mostly just aspiration and young people getting the ideas these options are possible and they should just have a go rather than lots of specific teaching per se.

Prepping for an interview is teaching a very specific way of interaction to show you are “teachable”, especially if we are talking about Oxbridge. This is not a natural skill at all and this is where state school candidates could benefit a lot. This goes on top of being good at the subject and generally well developed and self assured which is a mix of (secondary) school and family. I think both of these have nothing to do with which primary you attend so we are veering quite far away from the subject 🙂

No they don’t all have Oxbridge classes! Small numbers in some schools make this non viable.

However, choose a primary you like. My DD2 wasn’t near anyone from her prep. It took from a very wide area. A few DDs in the town were near each other. It really doesn’t matter though. You just get in the car!!! As do the other parents.

@PresentingPercy

No they don’t all have Oxbridge classes! Small numbers in some schools make this non viable.

However, choose a primary you like. My DD2 wasn’t near anyone from her prep. It took from a very wide area. A few DDs in the town were near each other. It really doesn’t matter though. You just get in the car!!! As do the other parents.

It really doesn’t matter though. You just get in the car!!! As do the other parents.

Maybe it does matter though. Maybe we should consider the environmental impact of these types of decisions.

In that case, local schools will need a lot more places. When are we expecting that? All village schools to close? At some village schools, 80-90% of DC do not walk to the school because the catchments are large. Schools serve lots of outlying villages and hamlets. I think the idea that parents should not use cars might work for towns, but we do not all live in towns. Yes, Im hanging on to my car. No bus. No shop. No pub. No street lighting. No school. 35 miles from London.

Of course not - but, perhaps if one has the choice, it is worth considering.

That will depend on the quality of local schools and what secondary destination is required. It really is not as easy as saying everyone should go local and walk.

Thanks for asking OP, having a similar debate for my DS.

I went to state primary and private secondary, I don't have any friends from primary school. I'm still best friends with a girl from Brownies though!

I’d opt for the private primary school and I would move closer to it.