Help end medical misogyny. Sign our petition.

Help end medical misogyny.
Sign our petition.

Sign the petition

Please or to access all these features

Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

Is Maths Teaching in Prep Schools purely driven by 11+?

56 replies

TrojaninTroy · 03/03/2021 12:32

After a year of unsuccessfully trying to get DC's Head of School (an all-through indie) to address the maths needs of our very numerate child, I think the penny has finally dropped. The maths teaching in this independent prep-school is aimed at getting children through their 11+, preferably to its own senior school. This is the unspoken agenda. Therefore it is taught to the middle ability/borderline kids and not to the more able, who can do it all anyway.

As an ex-State primary school teacher, this is not how I expected the maths teaching in a well thought of independent school to be for my child. I thought everything would be in place for DC to have the best teaching that could be delivered by a school with small classes, supported full time by a TA and the most needy/disrupted children selected out. Was I hopelessly naive to believe all the Tatler bullshit about this school? Are all independents like this or have we just been unlucky?

Although some Mumsnetters may perceive this to be another private school bashing thread, it is more a question about what we should actually expect from an independent. We don't have any doubt as to DC's ability to pass the 11+, so that wasn't why we chose this particular school. More to do with the things that cash-strapped state schools just can't provide these days.

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
littlemisslozza · 06/03/2021 18:21

"I do find prep school heads struggle with actually knowing what quality teaching actually looks like"

I don't find this, in my experience of two prep schools and I say this as an ex state school teacher. I've been really pleased with the differentiation and interesting lessons that my DC have received at them both. That has become especially clear over guided home learning too. Additionally, they do get inspected by external bodies, just not Ofsted so you would hope that weaknesses would be flagged up.

user149799568 · 06/03/2021 18:58

To be perfectly honest, no child necessarily needs to finish with the KS2 curriculum in y5.

I'm pretty sure that most of the independent secondaries around London consider the entire KS2 curriculum to be fair game on their entrance exams, so not finishing it until the end of Year 6 would put a child at a disadvantage. Nearly all preps around here make sure to have it completely finished by the end of Year 5, in plenty of time for the entrance exams, the earliest of which are in late November or early December. The more "academic" ones finish it well ahead of that.

Many state school students who are applying to independent secondaries get tutoring or parents' help to cover the full KS2 curriculum before the exams, as well. I don't know if the few grammars around here, Henrietta Barnett, Queen Elizabeth, and Latymer, also allow the full KS2 math and English syllabi in their entrance exams, but they are at the beginning of September.

By the way, some secondaries rather take the piss in their understanding of what constitutes a KS2 problem. This appeared on one practice exam. This problem is impossible if you haven't yet learned that there are 180 degrees in the interior angles of a triangle. It's merely very difficult if you have, but less so if you've had more time to practice with the knowledge.

Is Maths Teaching in Prep Schools purely driven by 11+?
MrPickles73 · 06/03/2021 19:01

trojanintry it's part of a large trust so would be like a flea on the corner of the titanic..
Dd1 was about a year ahead in maths when they joined the school and by Xmas 2020 was on target.. despite small classes teaches was aimed at the middle of the class and there was no stretch / greater depth. Just more of the same and not much more...

PresentingPercy · 06/03/2021 19:18

London is different. The rest of us don’t need this. Perfectly able to get into grammars and selective schools with good teaching. Although lots get tutors. Sadly. People just seem to end up with DCs at the same universities, despite allegedly being ahead.

ISI inspections are nothing like ofsted. Ofsted is far more stats based. Private school heads rarely teach, rarely observe lessons and I’ve seen plenty of isi reports where there’s no assessment policy either. Good at pr though. And sales.

SouthLondonMommy · 06/03/2021 19:40

Most private schools use data to monitor ability and progress against it as part of teacher accountability.

Maybe there are some really piss poor schools outside of London but ISI look at the data and have called out smaller preps local to me for not extending gifted children enough and regularly comment and the data systems in place as part of their inspection process. They look at work / marking, observe lessons and interview teachers.

If you look at the reports and the schools policies you should have a pretty clear idea of the approach. Maybe London is really different from the rest of the country but I'd be surprised if there was zero accountability in place at any school.

littlemisslozza · 06/03/2021 19:48

Not all private schools are the same though. Some are far better at staff development than others. Some are all through and don't prepare pupils for 11+ or other schools, where as as others rely on a reputation of gaining scholarships at 13+ to senior schools and stretch and challenge.

Don't forget Ofsted is flawed too. They see a snapshot of what goes on, maybe only 20 minutes of an hour long secondary school lesson, which is actually frustrating as a teacher as they don't get the whole picture, then they judge you. Behaviour is often better than normal too. I take Ofsted reports with a pince of salt having been through the process several times!

SouthLondonMommy · 06/03/2021 20:02

I agree, making this into a state versus private school debate doesn't make much sense. There are just good schools and bad schools regardless of sector.

PresentingPercy · 06/03/2021 20:22

Ofsted no longer go into lessons. It’s not remotely a snap shot. That’s the point I was making. The data Ofsted look at is data collected over time. ISI doesn’t have data put into a government web site. Ofsted knows lots about a school before they go near it. ISI don’t.

Isi is therefore a snapshot because they cannot compare against national data. They find things that need improvement but their reports are often ludicrously gushing too. If a school wasn’t teaching at the level DC could be doing, are they really held to account by anyone?

WombatChocolate · 06/03/2021 20:30

Preps can have different types of motivation.

The ones with a linked senior definitely want most to go on there. For some, they need to do an exam and so will be prepped for that....and yes, probably more effort will be out into getting the borderline to pass, although most Preps would like scholarships too. Some Preps however get their kids a free pass into senior and they do t do the entrance exam. It avoids the stress but often the incentive to really push them isn’t there in the same way.

For truly independent Preps, it is worth knowing when most will leave as has been said before, those that go to 13, in the past have been accused of doing less for the 11+ but that’s less the case now as most testing is in yr6 even for 13+ entry.

Prepping for a wide range of senior schools and lots of different entrance exams is hard for Prep schools ..some do different formats of reasoning exams and the written or maths exams can be very different. It’s why people often forget tutors too, who will focus on the specific exam or exams being sat by that child. People don’t realise until they are in the process how much exams can vary. So Preps will give experience of timed work, perhaps story writing and maths papers, reasoning questions..but the specific paper or papers a child takes might not have been practiced extensively by the school. It’s often tutors or parents working with the child who will do that extensive practice of a particular style.

When you’re looking round Preps...and this is hard with a 3 year old, or even a 7 year old, ask very precisely about entrance exam preparation and for a description of the process and timing and regularity of any practice and about marking of work too. If the school feeds a linked school, ask how they level their children and the standard they reach by the time they leave in top and also middle set....see how they describe it. If it’s too vague, it’s not good.

I’m a fan of stand-alone Preps. I think the experience children can have in the,can be amazing. However, I’m not convinced many take the kids further in most subjects (actually some do in languages, but a lot don’t really) and especially in terms of prepping for entrance exams, although that’s their remit, most people would do better with a very focused and targeted tutor, rather than a more general approach.

I think times have changed, it used to be that nice children at 13+ Preps didn’t have to be really clever or good at exams and entrance wasn’t a big competitive thing, but about being part of feeder schools which were welcomed by the Senior. However, especially in London, the market is so competitive (unless you opt out with an all-through school which quite simply can’t really be so selective) that lots of children in good Preps won’t make the top schools. Perhaps parents want more for their money today..not just a lovely school in the country with academics being very much an add-on, but parents want the grades and the extra curricular and the uni entry and to say their kid went to a top 20 or top 50 or top 100 school etc.

When you find out a Prep isn’t quite what you thought it was, or the thing you spot which you don’t like is something you’d never even thought of before, it’s often very hard to make genuine progress with it beyond a few tweaks. Some of the things such as the maths not being really stretching can be cultural and systemic and all related to the incentives or lack of incentives which exist regarding proceeding to the next stage of education and schools or teachers being measurable and held to account on basis. State school ofsted reports and SATs have loads of flaws and created a culture of box-ticking and often perverse incentives, but in independents which are all through schools, epseocialy those without exams, those lack of accountability points of ways of measuring achievement have their own problems.

SouthLondonMommy · 06/03/2021 20:37

@PresentingPercy

Ofsted no longer go into lessons. It’s not remotely a snap shot. That’s the point I was making. The data Ofsted look at is data collected over time. ISI doesn’t have data put into a government web site. Ofsted knows lots about a school before they go near it. ISI don’t.

Isi is therefore a snapshot because they cannot compare against national data. They find things that need improvement but their reports are often ludicrously gushing too. If a school wasn’t teaching at the level DC could be doing, are they really held to account by anyone?

Except ISI do compare against national data....

They also assess the provision against the national curriculum even though independent schools don't technically have to teach the national curriculum exactly.

littlemisslozza · 06/03/2021 20:46

I understand what you're saying but much of the data Ofsted rely on comes from SATs. I personally don't like how year 6 (pre-lockdown) was all about English and Maths SATs until May and know so many children who were utterly bored of English in particular. The joy sucked out of it. Also, these children then go into secondary with GCSE grades predicted using the SATs results. I have taught children without SATs results and you soon get a good idea of where they should be aiming from internal tests and classwork, it's not hard and you don't need a tedious year 6 experience in order to produce the data. People would (and do) vote with their feet if independent schools weren't getting results, particularly in areas where they are not oversubscribed.

We chose independent for our DC partly so they could have a broader education, which is definitely happening. I also know how they are performing because there is tracking and a report every term and I regularly see their work and results.

Kolo · 06/03/2021 22:41

@user149799568

To be perfectly honest, no child necessarily needs to finish with the KS2 curriculum in y5.

I'm pretty sure that most of the independent secondaries around London consider the entire KS2 curriculum to be fair game on their entrance exams, so not finishing it until the end of Year 6 would put a child at a disadvantage. Nearly all preps around here make sure to have it completely finished by the end of Year 5, in plenty of time for the entrance exams, the earliest of which are in late November or early December. The more "academic" ones finish it well ahead of that.

Many state school students who are applying to independent secondaries get tutoring or parents' help to cover the full KS2 curriculum before the exams, as well. I don't know if the few grammars around here, Henrietta Barnett, Queen Elizabeth, and Latymer, also allow the full KS2 math and English syllabi in their entrance exams, but they are at the beginning of September.

By the way, some secondaries rather take the piss in their understanding of what constitutes a KS2 problem. This appeared on one practice exam. This problem is impossible if you haven't yet learned that there are 180 degrees in the interior angles of a triangle. It's merely very difficult if you have, but less so if you've had more time to practice with the knowledge.

You could use exterior angles in a polygon to solve that. Kind of intuitive for children with good spatial awareness - the Ferris wheel has to do a full turn, 360 degrees, in increments of 20 degrees.

Not on topic, sorry.

user149799568 · 06/03/2021 23:49

You could use exterior angles in a polygon to solve that.

That’s actually kind of my point. Exterior angles is a GCSE topic, and knowing that the sum of the exterior angles of a polygon is 360 degrees makes this problem trivial.

The knowledge that the sum of the interior angles of an N-gon is 180 x (N - 2) also makes this problem simpler, but that’s a KS3 concept.

I think the school must justify this as a “KS2 problem” because you can derive both the other results from the sum of the interior angles of a triangle being 180 degrees.

I understand what you mean by good spatial intuition, but that’s not math, at least not KS2 math.

Kolo · 07/03/2021 00:04

Euler is year 6 programme of study. Angles in triangles also ks2.

SouthLondonMommy · 07/03/2021 09:38

@user149799568 knowing the angles of a triangle and other polygons is KS2 math. Its in the geometry section of Year 6.

I agree that the full year 6 curriculum (as a minimum) is fair game in London 11+ exams for selective schools. Most academic preps will have finished the year 6 curriculum by year 5 and the beginning of year 6 will be devoted to revision and test preparation for the January exams.

For the academic schools near me the 7+ is the same in that it covers the entire year 2 curriculum and also has some additional challenge questions from year 3. Students need to have covered all of this January of year 2.

PresentingPercy · 07/03/2021 09:55

ISI do not have data netted into a national database for independent schools. Thousands of prep schools don’t do Sats so how could they possibly compare? There is no nation wide comparison that holds any water.

SouthLondonMommy · 07/03/2021 10:09

There are a number of approaches.

For schools that do SATs they compare the SAT results clearly. For those that don't, they use the same data analytic tools used in the state system to monitor progress against tested ability. For instance, CATs are standardised nationally using all pupils (state and independent). This is then tracked against expected progress against age related expectations in the national curriculum.

ISI are very up on making sure that independent schools have robust data analytics in place and assess the protocols as well as the performance as part of its assessments.

PresentingPercy · 07/03/2021 10:09

Netted- entered. There is no comparison of progress and assessment differs widely even within the same school. ISI rarely finds much wrong. I’ve actually read a report on where my DDs went that was laughable. They mentioned subjects that were not taught, clubs that didn’t run. Etc. A work of fiction. It was a good school but not recognisable from the Isi novel.

When choosing a prep, destinations of DC matter. It is easier to get into schools outside London. However if you want X school you need to choose a prep that might actually get DC into it.

converseandjeans · 07/03/2021 10:18

I would assume that yes the teaching will be done to get the most in the cohort through the 11+ so they can advertise that they are successful at doing this.

user149799568 · 07/03/2021 10:19

Euler is year 6 programme of study.

knowing the angles of a triangle and other polygons is KS2 math. Its in the geometry section of Year 6.

My mistake. I knew that triangles were in the Year 6 syllabus. For some reason I thought that the general result for all polygons isn’t usually understood until KS3.

TrojaninTroy · 07/03/2021 10:23

It is interesting to learn that many independents are finished with the National Curriculum by the end of Year 5.

My son's Head Teacher claimed at a 'Headmaster's Tea with the Parents' nearly 18 months ago that the prep-school would be finished with the National Curriculum by the end of Year 4. And then, in an edition of Prep-News last November, grandiosely claimed that it was his aspiration for all children (I kid you not) to exceed their suggested potential. So how do these claims equate with the school's able children being under-challenged and under-extended?

It doesn't. It's just marketing, served up with Darjeeling and Passion cake.

And when we ask that Head for answers, we realise that he doesn't have a teaching qualification, doesn't know how maths is being taught in each year group, doesn't care, and, furthermore, communicates it to us with the condescending words 'Why don't you just trust us?' (Again, I speak the truth.) After all, there will be a place at the senior school for every child, including ours. At a school judged by its peer-reviewed ICI Report to be Outstanding.

OP posts:
PresentingPercy · 07/03/2021 10:26

Except some of the very best preps aim for 13 plus.

I absolutely accept that there are many great preps and some awful ones. Same in the state sector. I think knowing standards in a prep can be more difficult to ascertain. Yes, within the school there should be robust assessment and teaching based on this bit isi has no teeth. No RI or special measures for independent schools!

Ofsted might appear tick box but teachers hated lesson monitoring. So they cannot have it both ways. The tick box is looking at standards and quality of teaching over time. Heads have vast amount of data for the inspectors. So do governors. Independent school governors are low on progress data but big on finance. I accept it’s a different model but what progress DC make is sometimes obscure as the op has found.

SouthLondonMommy · 07/03/2021 10:29

@PresentingPercy

Netted- entered. There is no comparison of progress and assessment differs widely even within the same school. ISI rarely finds much wrong. I’ve actually read a report on where my DDs went that was laughable. They mentioned subjects that were not taught, clubs that didn’t run. Etc. A work of fiction. It was a good school but not recognisable from the Isi novel.

When choosing a prep, destinations of DC matter. It is easier to get into schools outside London. However if you want X school you need to choose a prep that might actually get DC into it.

@PresentingPercy

There is assessment of progress. I'm sure quality varies of assessors but they do find plenty wrong. Just two examples from schools local to me:

Rosemead: The school does not use National Curriculum testing, but uses a range of standardised testing to support its own newly redeveloped tracking and data-profiling system; analysis shows that pupils attain levels well above average and, for a significant number far above, in relation to national age-related expectations. The attainment for specific groups, such as by gender, is carefully monitored by senior managers but, as yet, staff have limited understanding of how they can analyse data to improve the progress and attainment of these pupils further. In the EYFS, a very large majority of children exceed national expectations for learning and development by the end of their time in the setting. Recommendations from the previous inspection, relating to the monitoring of teaching and pupils’ standards, including for children in the EYFS, have been successfully addressed.

Oakfield: Although the school has introduced new assessment and tracking procedures, these are not sufficiently used to set targets and challenges for the more able pupils. Provision to extend the more able pupils in lessons is under-developed.

For Oakfield I should say that extract was from 2014 and they have since addressed the concerns as I don't want to create a false impression of the school.

Again, neither Ofsted nor the ISI is likely to get it 100% right all the time but the suggestion there is no accountability regime for private schools is simply untrue.

SouthLondonMommy · 07/03/2021 10:33

I should add that those extracts were designed to illustrate ISI being critical of monitoring and pupil progress processes to show they don't just say everything is great all the time.

They also discuss assessment of progress based on cohort ability etc based on the national data etc elsewhere.

Bobbybobbins · 07/03/2021 11:32

I think your point about the lack of differentiation is key OP. I am a secondary teacher (not maths) and if I were not differentiating (we generally teach mixed ability in my subject) I would not receive a 'pass' observation, so to speak.