Talk common sense to a small, sad person (and her son who's not doing so well either)

[gizmo]

DS1 is five, rising six. Beautiful, impulsive and hairy, with a fair brain in his head, as far as I can tell. Before he started school I had thought it would be so straightforward: as a nursery child from very early on he?s quite self sufficient and social and comfortable working in groups of children?

Hollow laughter. As we get into year 1 I look forward and fear for him. He spent the first year crashing around and trying to make friends but he was too physical: trying to tickle people who didn?t want it, trying to play tag with kids who just wanted to play their own games. Leaning on other children trying to sit quietly in class. He didn?t fit in well with them and it got worse as some of the boys realised he was quite easily wound up ? so they teased him and the tickling has turned to scratching, and the tag is turning to hitting. No-one wants to play with him now, and I don?t blame them

I hoped it would get better once we changed the after school care arrangements: he was sooo tired from going to after school club. But now we have a nanny and he comes home and slobs out and still when I talk to school or read his special behaviour book we?re getting incidents of hitting, scratching, barging people.

Why is he doing this? He shows no sign of it at home at all: he?s too active to be described as gentle but he knows where the line is and won?t cross it. If friends come over for a playdate he?s perfectly happily puttering around with them and I can?t think of an incident where he has hurt anyone. We?ve talked about it until I?m blue in the face but he is clamlike about school and extracting even a tiny nugget of information from him involves a huge amount of pressure.

So, folks, what to do? I don?t want him to have a dazzling social calendar but the idea of him being turned into the school bully is horrible. On my last visit to his teacher I realised that all the other children had written the name of a classmate under ?my best friend? in their little ?about me? books. Except DS1, who had written his nanny?s name. Nice to know they get along, but it would have cheered me up no end to see the name of one of his class mates there

Those question marks don't help, do they?

I'll try to translate:

DS1 is five, rising six. Beautiful, impulsive and hairy, with a fair brain in his head, as far as I can tell. Before he started school I had thought it would be so straightforward: as a nursery child from very early on he?s quite self sufficient and social and comfortable working in groups of children?

Hollow laughter. As we get into year 1 I look forward and fear for him. He spent the first year crashing around and trying to make friends but he was too physical: trying to tickle people who didn?t want it, trying to play tag with kids who just wanted to play their own games. Leaning on other children trying to sit quietly in class. He didn?t fit in well with them and it got worse as some of the boys realised he was quite easily wound up ? so they teased him and the tickling has turned to scratching, and the tag is turning to hitting. No-one wants to play with him now, and I don?t blame them

I hoped it would get better once we changed the after school care arrangements: he was sooo tired from going to after school club. But now we have a nanny and he comes home and slobs out and still when I talk to school or read his special behaviour book we?re getting incidents of hitting, scratching, barging people.

Why is he doing this? He shows no sign of it at home at all: he?s too active to be described as gentle but he knows where the line is and won?t cross it. If friends come over for a playdate he?s perfectly happily puttering around with them and I can?t think of an incident where he has hurt anyone. We?ve talked about it until I?m blue in the face but he is clamlike about school and extracting even a tiny nugget of information from him involves a huge amount of pressure.

So, folks, what to do? I don?t want him to have a dazzling social calendar but the idea of him being turned into the school bully is horrible. On my last visit to his teacher I realised that all the other children had written the name of a classmate under ?my best friend? in their little ?about me? books. Except DS1, who had written his nanny?s name. Nice to know they get along, but it would have cheered me up no end to see the name of one of his class mates there

It's a tough one, isn't it?

no suggestions, just wanted you to know that this had been read. What suggestions does the teacher have?

If he doesn't show that behaviour at home, then it suggests the problem is at school, and they need to find a way to deal with it. what exactly does the teacher say to you about it?
Have any other parents said anything to you? Does he have any brothers or sisters? I only ask this as my dd1 who is very put upon by her brothers at home is a right bossy little madam at school sometimes!

I'm drawn to answering as I also have a boy the same age. There are a few boys in his class who could be as you describe.

I think - from the other side, so to speak - I would try quite hard to make sure your DS does make friends and doesn't get demonised by the others. I have seen it happen in DS's class- there is one boy who is getting left behind becuase the others simply don't want to play with him if it means getting a whack. So this boy is simply getting marginalised - no one wants him round to play and DS refused to go to his party - a hugely powerful decision by DS. So I think now is a really key time to work on this.

They are still young enough for a bit of social engineering - I would try and set up some playdates and get him having a good one-to-one relationship with some of the children. This will definitely spill over into school.

Can you make him a bit special with regards to something he has at home? Make it so children want to come round and play with something (my Ds has an impressive collection of Thunderbirds stuff - all inherited - which gives him a high social standing among 5 and 6 year old boys, but tbh they are fairly easy to impress!). You say that he is great on a one-to-one level and I would really try to build on this.

My Ds has just started doing judo as well - if it is well taught, I think it is excellent for physical boundaries and discipline etc.

I would also speak to the school constantly about what you should be doing - not agonise about it but set up a dialogue so you are both working to the same ends.

good luck!

Well, we're on a behaviour book. He gets four faces a day, if they're all smiley we all get excited and he gets to put a pebble in the class jar (which when full results in the whole class getting a treat).

If there are any sad faces he looses 'golden time' at the end of the week.

Teacher is hoping that the contributions to the class jar will reduce the incentives for the others to tease, but that seems to have worn off now the novelty's gone.

I'm sorry, gizmo. This sounds so awful for you both.

Was is his teacher's view on this? Does she not have anything constructive to say? Any strategies for the future?

If it's any comfort, I think boys in particular change a lot as they move up the school years. And friendships change too.

My ds1 is now in y5 - and is good friends with someone who was quite horrid to him in the infants. Another boy who was the 'school terror' in reception has turned out to be a lovely, kind, popular kid. Please don't give up hope!

My ds isn't rough, but he is exceptionally bossy and stubborn, and this impacts just as much on his friendships. He finds it very hard to make good friends, because he tends to drive them away with his unyielding approach. He has a little group of sort-of friends, and I invite them round pretty regularly.

I talk to him about it, but he doesn't seem to see that playing with other children involves a bit of give or take. So he and DH come up with 'plans' for what to do in certain situations. If he has a plan, it makes him a bit happier dealing with the inevitable disputes.

Thanks folks. Unfortunately DS1 has no siblings at school; although he is close to our neighbour's kids who also attend school

Anchovies, you have hit exactly on my concerns. Like I say I don't expect him to be the most popular boy in the class, but it's a hell of a long stretch at primary school if he ends up aggressive and marginalised.

Good idea about building social network through playdates. I shall have to work harder at that although it's a bit tricky because I work full time and so don't know many of the school gate mums.

I shall have to think about the building status through toys a bit. Do you think the world's largest collection of lego counts? Problem is if he starts taking it to school it'll get broken, then he'll get upset and before you know it we'll be off on the offensive again...

Re the clamlike thing, I get lots more success if I ask "eliptical" questions, rather than direct ones.

If I ask - what did you do today: zero information. If you ask something like "what is the naughtiest thing anyone has done in your class" DS is only too willing to spill (Answer: Sophia ripped up a drawing someone else had spent ages on and refused to say sorry, because she wasn't sorry ; Laura bit Emma because she wanted to go on the computer and Emma had started logging off ).

DS gets positively animated about things like that. What do other people have in their lunchboxes; debates as to who is the fastest runner; who is rubbish at getting dressed after PE - I know the answers to all of these. No idea at all about any work or general matters.

Ah yes, Anchovies, the devious ploys we have to use! I've made most progress with 'the nicest/silliest/most boring thing to happen to me today was x - what about you?'

Honestly I have heard of 'How to talk so your kids will listen..etc' but I don't think DS has!

Yes, lego is VERY popular in Year 1 boy circles here.

I work full time as well, but sometimes you just have to be a bit thick skinned about it. I would just say something along the lines of "Ds has been talking a bit about and they would really love to have a big lego-athon one afternoon".

(TBH, the boy who is like this in DS's class, I'm not entirely sure the parents recognise it or are concerned about it - I have heard that the father advises the son to get his retaliation in first. The fact that you can see this and want to do something about it is a huge plus, I think).

As you and I say, the key is to make sure he doesn't get marginalised at this stage.

Another thing is to see if there is something some of the others do after school - cubs, beavers, football, judo etc -which your DS could go along to and form closer links with a couple of children that way).

I would echo what Anchovy said - just walked to post-box with ds and suddenly found out all about the Christmas play without any prompting just because we were walking along side by side, very relaxed, enjoying being together. If I ask him any questions - nothing!

Well, you'd approve of the email I have just fired off to one other school mum, then:

'I hear from nanny that DS and boy x have been living it up in the local playground together, does boy x fancy coming round for lego and cake sometime on Sunday?'

Gulp. It's actually a problem with my self confidence to some extent, because after a bit it's hard to not take refusals of that sort of invitation as confirmation that your boy is in fact a thug. Whereas the truth is that people are normally just a bit busy.

His teacher, porpoise, is very nice but rather young. The behaviour book is her first step in dealing with this, not sure what the next one will be.

TBH part of me is rather cross with DS. I've spent plenty of time talking to him about how to approach tricky social situations, even playacting some bits of them with him(although DS hates that sort of conversation, so it's hard to be sure any of it is going in). It's not like he doesn't know what to do. On occasion I find myself grimly wondering whether he hasn't had sufficient incentive from us to behave himself, and whether 20 minutes of time out in his bedroom everytime he gets a sad face would help.

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Gizmo, I really do think the teacher is the key here.

IME, if the teacher starts praising a child for their improved behaviour, the other children pick up on it really fast. And start to change their opinions/accept that child more easily into friendship groups.

I'd really get that teacher on your side. Tell her how much you want to work with her on sorting this out. Write stuff in that behaviour book (if it comes home) about things that happen at home (good and bad) and how you dealt with them. Ask for another meeting in a few weeks' time to discuss progress.

Don't be too hard on your ds. It's tough being a lively, tactile boy in a sit-quiet-and-don't-move classroom

That's a good idea Porpoise, I'll start giving the teacher some feedback about how he is at home.

I was quite amused to find the class pebble in jar system did have one unintended consequence - apparently when it was introduced many of the children spent the next couple of days telling the teacher how good DS1 was being. Shame it wore off, really.

And yes, doodledootoo, I did look (trying to look all casual as I did - LOL). No-one mentioned DS1 as a friend

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Look folks I have to go now (got to make DS2 birthday cake and go out tonight with some friends) but I wanted to say thanks.

I think I was very stressed when I started this thread - got slightly teary writing it all down - but there are things we can do. DS is never going to be the King of Cool, but hopefully we can make school fun again, which is all I really want.

I teach in a primary school (am specialist music teacher) I only go in once a week and work with 2 classes of 20 pupils. Because I haven't talked to the other teachers about
"good" and "challenging" pupils I often find that I have written a "good" child's name in the discipline book, and throughly enjoyed the challenging child's contributions!

It has demonstrated to me how easily a child can live up to a label, they can even adapt to different labels with different teachers.

gizmo I've got a dd and she's the total opposite of your ds - very reserved and rather anti-social.

BUT one of my closest friends has a ds in dd's class who sounds identical to your ds. My friend's been having the most awful time lately. The other mums have told her her ds can't come to any of the birthday parties because none of the other kids will come if he's there. And just about every mum of a boy has fallen out with / had an argument with her in the last few weeks. She's at her wit's end.

As for the boy himself. Well, he's a big lad, very physically developed, with a big voice and like you describe with your ds he has little sense of other people's space / possessions. I see him randomly do things like run past a child carrying their drawings home, grab them, screw them up, chuck them on the floor. It's devastating for the one whose work has been scrunched but I honestly don't think her ds senses that. he's just so full of beans / energy that he doesn't think. He always says sorry and looks like he really means it.

My friend has tried all kinds of discipline with him. At school he gets sent into time out all the time my dd says. And yet you know what, when I do my parent-helper bit listening to them read I think he's honestly the best reader in the whole class. He sits, focuses, tells me what the story is about after reading all the words perfectly.

In conclusion, for what it's worth, my friend and I have decided that he's 'larger than life' and that larger than life characters are a bit hard for other people to accommodate. In the same way that moody self-conscious recluses like my dd are hard to accommodate. But it takes all kinds of characters to make a world and he'll probably grow up to be hugely successful and driven.

Oh and your playdate idea is a fab one. My friend's ds has lately got a friend through his mum doing that.

Sorry for waffling.

You're so right, imaginaryfriend!

The sad thing is that some parents can't see past the labels. So they 'brand' particular children as ones they don't want their children associating with.

And so the labels get stuck...

My DS was a bit like this when little (in fact mine was probably worse). I am still traumatised by our first pre-school visit; the list of parental wishes included someone who very definitely did not want their child in a class with my DS. Which would have been fine but my DS thought this boy was his friend.
Setting up social occasions is good but you may need to be there and actively make them work. Your DS may have very fixed ideas about how his lego is played with and you may need to do a bit of facilitating. Cinema trips are very good.
Group activities (judo etc) will only work if the leader is very skilled or if they do parent child classes so you can do it with him.
Things do get easier as children get bigger and develop a bit more social understanding. Good luck! (Did I mention that my DS bit someone on his 2nd day at school - exactly....)

i can only add - if you possibly can, do go in to help in the class. It gives the ds enormous confidence and pride to see mum there, and you can gain a sense of how he actually is in class, rather than 2nd hand info from teacher. It might also have a calming effect, if he's not aggresive at home, to see you out of the home enviornment - might make a link between that behaviour and the school behaviour? Get some time off work if you need to, it only needs one half-day a fortnight or month.