Talk common sense to a small, sad person (and her son who's not doing so well either)

[gizmo]

DS1 is five, rising six. Beautiful, impulsive and hairy, with a fair brain in his head, as far as I can tell. Before he started school I had thought it would be so straightforward: as a nursery child from very early on he?s quite self sufficient and social and comfortable working in groups of children?

Hollow laughter. As we get into year 1 I look forward and fear for him. He spent the first year crashing around and trying to make friends but he was too physical: trying to tickle people who didn?t want it, trying to play tag with kids who just wanted to play their own games. Leaning on other children trying to sit quietly in class. He didn?t fit in well with them and it got worse as some of the boys realised he was quite easily wound up ? so they teased him and the tickling has turned to scratching, and the tag is turning to hitting. No-one wants to play with him now, and I don?t blame them

I hoped it would get better once we changed the after school care arrangements: he was sooo tired from going to after school club. But now we have a nanny and he comes home and slobs out and still when I talk to school or read his special behaviour book we?re getting incidents of hitting, scratching, barging people.

Why is he doing this? He shows no sign of it at home at all: he?s too active to be described as gentle but he knows where the line is and won?t cross it. If friends come over for a playdate he?s perfectly happily puttering around with them and I can?t think of an incident where he has hurt anyone. We?ve talked about it until I?m blue in the face but he is clamlike about school and extracting even a tiny nugget of information from him involves a huge amount of pressure.

So, folks, what to do? I don?t want him to have a dazzling social calendar but the idea of him being turned into the school bully is horrible. On my last visit to his teacher I realised that all the other children had written the name of a classmate under ?my best friend? in their little ?about me? books. Except DS1, who had written his nanny?s name. Nice to know they get along, but it would have cheered me up no end to see the name of one of his class mates there

Ooooh, bit of a result here...boy x is coming around tomorrow afternoon for a legathon.

I've got a fairly quiet week on at work next week so I think I'll try to pop in and see teacher, give her an update on DS1's good behaviour this weekend (and he has been good, despite eating a portion of chocolate birthday cake larger than his head he played really quite nicely with the other children here for DS2's birthday party).

So despite having a horrible hangover from going out last night and hosting DS2's party today, I'm feeling much more cheerful.

You are all wonderful. But you know that anyway

I have just found this gizmo. Well done on contacting the mum of boy x, and I hope the boys have a fab time tomorrow!

My ds was a bit of a handful in reception and Y1. He was very tactile and would hug other children so tight he would actually hurt them. After a while the other children would move away when they saw ds approaching, broke my heart.
He would also be the one child who was singled out as being the 'class clown', he was trying so hard to be liked he ended up getting into trouble with the teacher and resented by the other children.

I employed the same strategies as you, asking other children to play and ensure he was not 'villified'.

I have to say, now ds is in Y4, and it is completely the opposite: he is very non-confrontational,very calm, sociable and caring and instead of playing rough boys games in the playground, or instead of playing football with all the boys, he sits in the library with a few girls reading! He is not the king of cool, but he has a handful of nice friends (mostly girls, as he does not like the macho rough and tumble of Y4 boys)
He has turned out just fine, and I am sure your ds will too, he just needs that extra time to mature socially, just like my ds did.

How did the legathon go Gizmo?

Oh the legathon was just fine. DS happily turned the Thunderbirds tape up to 11 and they spent a couple of hours shouting mightily about 'condition yellow', 'delta 7' that kind of thing. Slight wobble when DS decided he wanted to watch the Empire Strikes Back and boy x didn't (cue evil mummy hissing 'we don't leave our guests to play on their own' to sulky son) but overall, thanks to boy x's wondrous burping abilities, a good time was had by all.

However, that was the highlight of the day, behaviour-wise, since in all other respects DS1 was a total little toad yesterday. I even had my first 'whatever' off him .

Sounds great - pleased to hear about that.

I think it is important for your son to have a good one-to-one with some of these children - and also for you to have a reasonable rapport with the parents.

As I've said, I'm on the other side of the fence as effectively the mother of the (ever so slightly and in the nicest possible way!)namby pamby one who gets things done to him. There are some parents in DS's class who I am not comfortable speaking to after a "falling out" because I know they think either their child is blameless in every situation or they think unprovoked hitting of other children is fine - in fact providing a service in "toughening them up".

If I think the parents are realistic about their child's behaviour than I'm more than happy for my DS to be playing with them.

A 2 hour "Thunderbird-athon" would be heaven for my DS!

I had a really nice chat with the mother of boy x, actually, who has had similar issues to mine with her own older boy.

She's had a much tougher time of it (including a parent who physically threatened her ) but her DS1 is a real nice kid now, so I'm gathering strength from that.

Anchovies, if you ever end up in Cambridge I'm sure DS1 would be delighted to host another Thunderbirdathon. It's definitely one of his specialist topics

I found that Karate helped my son to control his outbursts. As they teach self discipline above all else, and control secondly, it also is a great way for them to burn off steam. One last point is that they all knew that if they use their teachings outside of school, they will lose their licience.

this thread is so helpful to me (have 2 boys!)

thanks for starting it and good luck with your boys all out there!

It sounds like you're a bit in the dark as to why he is behaving like he does at school. I would second talking to the teacher. Ask if she knows what triggers the behaviour e.g. does it happen when he wants to get someone to play with him or when he is asked to share etc. There is another slightly crafty way you can find out what your DS thinks about what is going on. Sounds odd, but generally gets the goods.

Firstly, ask you DS to draw a picture of a happy face. Then ask him to tell you about someone who is happy. Try and keep it very general. E.g. if he says "That's me, I'm happy" just say "Oh ok, tell me something about someone who is happy". If he can't think of anything give him a few prompts e.g. "What do they look like?", "What made them happy?", "Do they have friends?" etc. Try and get about 3 or 4 comments.

Then do the same for a sad face.

Then, and this is the crafty bit. Ask him to draw a face of someone who always bumps into children at school and gets into trouble for hitting (or whatever it is that he is finding difficult in school). He may say "Oh like me" in which case acknowledge it but don't make a bit thing of it (e.g. "Hmm") but just repeat "Tell me some things about someone whi is like that". Make sure he knows he is talking about a type of person, not him. Usually they have a lot to say, but if not give a few prompts. E.g. "How do they feel, happy or sad or angry?" , "What makes them hit the other children?" (why questions are very hard and you probably won't get a good answer), "Do they have friends?", "Do they want friends?" etc. You probably already have an inkling about what you think may be going on, so try and test it out.

Then, ask him to draw a face of someone who is never in trouble and never bumps into others (basically the opposite of whatever he is doing that is causing problems). Ask him to tell you about this kind of person.

You should probably choose a relaxed time to do this to get the best results. This technique is usually very revealing. Children tend to open up much more easily using it than if you use a direct approach. Once you have his views on what is happening, you can then begin to make a plan. For example, if it is all about him wanting to get people to play with him, you can launch an all out campaign for showing him how to do this most effectively. There are lots of ways of doing this. You would probably also need to include the teacher for a bit of social engineering as well. I really think the key is to find out his views about what triggers the behaviour as this is going to give you the information you need to make a relevant plan.

Oh, that turned into a bit of an essay. Sorry.

Neolara that is an absolutely top tip. I do find it immensely hard to get DS to talk about his feelings and behaviours: he is extremely selective about what he will tell me. So any ideas for improving communication on this front is pure gold for me.

Gizmo - I want to stand next to your ds in the classroom, put my arm around him and knock over the blardy jar of pebbles, and throw the book in the bin!

I think it's like this. When he started school he was big and had immature social skills. He was inappropriate. The other children thought he was a pita. This stuck. Now he's older and learning, he should be given a break.

This whole strategy smacks of sticking on a label and endorsing it over and over again. He's probably only got half an idea about what is expected. He probably thinks he's an awful person and all the children and the teacher thing he's 'bad'. And he isn't, and it's making me cross, and he carries on behaving like this, because that's what is expected.

I think you should talk to the teacher about implementing some more positive ways of addressing things. Keep having the kids round for legoathons, keep the boundaries clear, but he needs to move out of the 'bad boy' corner, doesn't he?

gizmo- I'll try and keep this brief but wanted add a couple of things. Firstly talking to the teacher gently might be illuminating; I know that when first qualified I would have leapt in with a bahaviour book whereas now having watched older, more patient colleagues I often play the waiting game and problems that seem huge early in the year seem far smaller and less important in the subsequent terms. By placing yourself firmly on her side and making it clear you want to work with her, you should be able to find out more about the issues in the classroom.
I have a challenging ds, who finds many aspects of socialising tricky. He has made huge progress over the last two years and although there are still tricky moments, he has worked out how school works and how he fits in. Some children find the social side of school effortless; he finds the academic side effortless but the making of friends has needed time, energy and lots of explanations from us about what is, and what isn't acceptable and what the consequences of different courses of action are. I find that constantly pointing out to him that he chooses how he behaves and the consequences of different choices has been really useful. Hang on in there; it will come right.

nice post ahundredtimes

Sigh. Oh 100x, me too. Except how can we also brainwash the other children into forgetting what they think of DS?

Yes, I do see. Let's get him in a pincer movement in the classroom and 'accidentally' knock the pebbles off the table.

I just think that he doesn't want to talk about it because he's FIVE (as you say) and frankly not that sophisticated, and everything you say, however you dress it up, all he hears is 'You are a Problem. This was Wrong. You did Bad.' I think he's confused and defensive rather than 'not listening' IYSWIM.

If it were me, I'd put my fingers in my ears too!

I think children at this age are much more fluid than you think. My ds's or dd might come home and say 'x is horrid' one day, and then the next 'x was sooo funny, can he come for tea?'

Reputations are not made and stuck at 5. Thank god!

Keep having them round for tea and a play. Talk to the teacher, like rospud said, things will improve over time.

Have you read that How to Talk So Children Will Listen book? A lot of it is quite daft, but it is REALLY GOOD on changing negative speaking into positive, and opening up spaces for talking.

I think, anyway. Also good on finding other ways of saying 'You really can't go about biting Sam in the playground'. Have a look at it?

The teacher needs to stop singling him out as the bad boy. That's got to be step one.

The relief of not being responsible for the pebbles, and everyone thinking and knowing he's bad, might make a change.

I'd talk to the teacher about my worries about her approach. And I'd say to him, if she agrees, 'You know what. You've done so well, we don't need to do the pebbles, because you're great and everyone is so proud of you. Now remember, don't bite and kick when you're annoyed. What could you do instead? Let's write down some things. . . '

Am I making any sense?

It's all about expectations, isn't it?

He knows that everybody in the class expects him to behave badly.

Ergo. . . .

So she says 'I'm so pleased with boygizmo. We won't do the pebbles anymore'.

And he's all grinny, because now he's like the rest. And the children think, 'oh that's good, boygizmo is nice now and not bad like the teacher said he was.'

This REALLY is my last post on this!

When you talk to the teacher suggest this route as something you could try together, to see if it helps change his behaviours. Don't say 'he's perfect, I don't want it' and take a punt together, and work together and see if it works?

Sorry, I went on a bit.

but I think you are right x100. I don't really have any experience on this but children change so fast - my nephew was finding life difficult socially a few months ago (five and in a school that didn't suit him). He was desperate for friends, tried to hard, got frustrated, got angry etc etc. Six months on and he's much more settled, happy at school etc. He just needed a little more maturity than he had six months ago.

I think the labels are bad at this age. But Karate a good idea. Or other out of school things where he can build his confidence with kids who don't know he's supposed to be the bad one.

Yes, I did read it a while back, but have probably fallen into bad habits. I will revisit it.

Anyway, it's entirely my own fault for having married DH: a man who instinctively shuts up like a clam whenever he feels something is wrong. DS is definitely daddy's boy in that respect.

Hi gizmo - just found this thread. My ds2 sounds like your ds. Last year (YR1) chn were always saying he was 'naughty' and he wasn't, he was just being himself but his teacher just didn't know what to do with him. I gave up on the teacher as ds1 had been through the same thing in her class previously and went to see the head who was brilliant. I was careful not to criticise the teacher but he generally agreed with me anyway and he took a 'special interest' in him from then on. This year he is much happier - still just as loud but other chn don't say he's naughty any more. (except for one or two mean older ones at beavers - grrr)

Gizmo - I am just rushing out so will have to get back to your post later, but wanted to say don't give up hope.
My DS was the class demon in year one, will explain why later, but is not in year three.
Have faith in your DS, he may have some issues that can be sorted out and all can be turned around.
You sound like a loving, concerned mother and I am sure you will help him in whatever way you can.

Gizmo - I have 3 boys and i have to say that boygizmo sounds quite normal!! 5 yearolds are big, clumsy, clod-hopping things (unlike dainty girls) and although biting/scratching/pushing shouldn't be accepted, just being boisterous is what boys do! The teacher doesn't seem to have much experience of boys.(I had the same in ds2+3's preschool - i think they would rather just have had girls!)
Having said that, there is a condition known as dyspraxia where the motor control is not good, the boy (and it's usually boys) is very clumsy, doesn't concentrate etc. I don't think there is a 'cure' I think they grow out of it!