Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

Original poster

C of E School - non believing attendee

77 replies

ChasingSquirrels · 20/10/2007 10:40

ds has just started in YR at the local village school - which is a VC C of E school. DH and I do not have any religion and although ds has an idea of god he says that he doesn't believe (fair enough - he says "we don't believe in god" and I say "well I don't but you can make your own mind up when you are older", but I appreciate he is a bit young for that concept).
Anyway, he has started saying prayers and singing hymms at home (when we sit down to eat he occasionally says "for what we are about to recieve...", and yesterday was singing "we've got the whole world in our hands").
I don't have any problem with this, to me the hymms are just songs and it is nice to be thankful for the fact we have food.
BUT he then asks me what these things mean, or with reference to the whole wide world song said it was silly and a man couldn't hold the world in his hand could he?
I have then been explaining that they are prayers to god, or songs about god, and explaining the concepts behind them.
THEN ds gets arsy and says he isn't going to say them or isn't going to sing them because he doesn't believe in god. Which I don't think is a good thing at 5.
Any idea on how to approach this?

OP posts:
ScaryScienceT · 20/10/2007 10:51

I imagine he will just go with the flow at school.

I work in a Catholic school, and most of the girls are not Catholic. They all sing hymns, say prayers, and make the Sign of the Cross - even the Muslim and Sikh girls.

Original poster
ChasingSquirrels · 20/10/2007 11:15

Umm, I hope so, I am telling him that it is just something you say, but he has said that they have to say grace (apparently they say it in the classroom before they have to go up to the hall) and a couple of children have been kept behind because they wouldn't say it (no idea if this is just because they didn't want to, as opposed to a religious objection), and he was quite upset by the fact that "the teacher forces you to say it" (his emphasis).
I said that it is just words and we should be thankful that we have food to eat, because lots of people don't. But he was quite upset at having to say it.
I will see how it goes, what I don't want is him being penalised if he decides not to say it, I don't think he should be kept back from going into lunch etc if he is deciding not to say it because he doesn't believe, as opposed to not saying it because he is being silly or messing.

OP posts:
LindzDelirium · 20/10/2007 18:50

we are non believers with DD in YR1 at the CE (only) school in the village. The God squad stuff does get on my nerves at times but what can you do, it's a CE school? When she tells me about the bible stories they've done I say "thats a nice story" because I don't believe at 5 she is old enough to make up her own mind about what she does and doesn't believe. I have asked her just now and she says she does believe in God he lives a long way up in the sky and when you die you get to meet him.

oooooooh dear

emilytankengine · 22/10/2007 23:07

personally i think that's quite nice Lindz. If it makes you uncomfortable CS don't send him to a church school

brimfull · 22/10/2007 23:15

my ds also attends a CE school and is in reception.

He loves all the religious stuff,despite or amybe becasue it is all new to him.First week he came home and asked who God was.
I'm quite happy for him to learn and semi practice the religion as it is all based on teachings that I essentially believe ie.doing unto others etc.
They also say grace in the classroom before lunch.I suppose if he vehemently opposes it then they would have to let him off.
There are a few Jehovahs Witness kids at ds' school who don't do any of the religious stuff like xmas etc ,but not sure about grace.

EmsMum · 22/10/2007 23:33

I think your DS is a budding man of principle and that if he really doesn't believe something no-one should make him.

Unto thine own self be true.

But chances are the arsyness was mainly for your benefit and he won't rock the boat at school yet awhile.

Reallytired · 23/10/2007 09:54

CS I think you should find your son another school. Or tell the school that your family are athesists and you don't want your son saying prayers or singing hymns. If your son's school is the only school around then they will legally HAVE to respect this.

At five year olds your son relgious views will reflect his parents' opinons. He is just saying things to try and please his parents. Children aren't really capable of independent religous thought until they are teenagers and have had a bit of life experience.

Clearly his parents' opinons are not in sympathy with the school. It is abolutely clear from your first post that CS considers christianity to be a bit of a joke.
Why did CS choose to send her son to a C of E school?

majorstress · 23/10/2007 09:57

There are hundreds of thousands of people in the UK that have sent their children to faith schools solely becuase they get better results.

It has little to do with their family beliefs.

edam · 23/10/2007 09:58

I don't think there's any mystery about why CS sent her son to a CofE school - she says it's the local village school. And so has a duty to cater for all children, not just the offspring of believers.

CS, I wouldn't worry too much about any long-term effects, I remember my much-younger sister coming home talking about having accepted the baby Jesus into her heart. She's grown up into an atheist.

corblimeymadam · 23/10/2007 10:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

majorstress · 23/10/2007 10:45

They get plenty of RE for every religion in state schools and have to be respectful of all of it.

Lots of villages have no alternative.

The state schools have to take everyone, including the parents who are too disorganised or whatever to be religious. It weeds out a FEW of the dysfunctional families (not to say you can't be both). In many areas you have to be VERY organised and determined to get in, and attend church etc.-it just excludes people who are less determined about their kid.

ScaryScienceT · 23/10/2007 10:47

CofE schools should reserve a sizeable proportion of spaces for non-CofE, including other Christians, other faiths, and no faith.

majorstress · 23/10/2007 10:52

I agree but thye don't if they have enough CofEs to fill up.

ScaryScienceT · 23/10/2007 10:54

The actual proportion of reserved places is set by the board of governors. It's typical to reserve 20-30% of places to practicing Anglicans, rather the majority of places. It goes against the church's educational ethos to close the doors to the community

edam · 23/10/2007 10:59

My local CofE school (actually the nearest to my house) reserves all its places for believers, in practice. Admission criteria go children in care/with a defined social or educational need/ children of worshippers in that parish with a letter from the Vicar/children ditto of other parishes/local children. They never get beyond category 4, other parishes.

It's only a small school, there are plenty of other excellent schools in my town. But I do think it's a shame, having been to a CofE primary myself that was open to all.

Lorayn · 23/10/2007 11:03

If you are unhappy with your child being taught religion then dont send him to a religious school. There is a good catholic school near me but my family and I are CofE, so I wont send my daughter to the Catholic school, becuse it doesnt fit in with my beliefs.
I certainly wouldnt send her to the Catholic school and then be bothered by them teaching her Catholic ways.

GooseyLoosey · 23/10/2007 11:05

In same position as you CS and have ranted about it on here in the past. Ds is in reception in a CofE school and we are atheists.

Before anyone says "send him to a different school", I live in a village with a state funded primary school which is a CofE voluntary maintained school. The LEA own the building. There is no school within 10 miles which is not CofE. In any event, my son has a right to be educated within the community into which he was born and is an active part of without relgious indoctrination being part of the package.

I am a very principled atheist by which I mean, I find it quite hard to tolerate the "opt-out" mentality of religion in a state funded school. I also do not subscribe to the "tolerate it as it does no harm" notion - in my view, religion can do a great deal of harm. However, as I will not let my son stand out from his peers I am stuck with it.

Ds knows very clearly that we do not believe in God and in our household God has the status of fairy tale that some people believe in. When he raises questions about relgion we say "some people believe... " I try not to ram my atheisim down his throat but in my world view it is the only rational stand point so I have to explain things to him from that perspective - I cannot give a "both sides view".

Good luck. I personally would not object to his stance.

Lorayn · 23/10/2007 11:07

GooseyLoosey it deopends what you put more importance on, your child not being taught religion or your child travelling to school.

bearsmom · 23/10/2007 11:17

ChasingSquirrels, we are in the same position as you. DH and I are not religious but DS started in reception at a C of E school this Sept and we've had real issues with the religious side of things (and before everyone who says "well don't send him to a C of E school then" kicks off at me I need to point out that every primary school within the town and villages in a six mile radius of us is C of E so we didn't have a choice). Our C of E school doesn't even use the NC for RE, they've opted out and use a curriculum supplied by the diocese. Because it's just been harvest festival we've had ds singing a song which says that "only God can make things grow", so of course he started telling me that we hadn't grown the veg in the garden, God had. It's a tricky issue, because by telling him that is wrong, I'm telling him that something his teacher has told him is wrong and I hate to do that. We've taken the line that different people believe different things, and it's everyone's right to hold their own beliefs. We've said we don't believe in god but that his teachers do and we've said that the hymns are just songs, like Nellie the elephant packing her trunk, and the stories are just stories. I think it's a bit of a minefield and I resent the fact that religion has any place at all in schools other than as a separate subject where all belief systems are covered, but we're stuck with the system and I don't think it's going to change any time soon sadly.

Oh, and I've also had a meeting with the head teacher to see the curriculum they use and have told her that although I would prefer to always back up what ds's teacher tells him, on the subject of religion I can't and won't. So they're aware of our position, just in case he starts refusing to say prayers or sing hymns. The head teacher did say that especially for the older pupils she doesn't insist that they say the prayers but she does insist that they use the time when prayers are being said to be quiet and reflective. Which I think is a positive attitude to take. Maybe your ds could do this?

GooseyLoosey · 23/10/2007 11:32

Lorayn - its not principally about travelling (although it would be a practical impossibility - there is no public transport etc where we live) it is about being a part of a community and knowing the people you live near. I value that extremely highly. Its one reason I live in the village I live in.

edam · 23/10/2007 11:38

Lorayn, your stance would only work if parents had a choice of schools. In an area where the only local school is CofE, parents have no choice.

I wouldn't worry too much about it, though. My father is an atheist and always pointed out he thought the religion taught at my CofE primary (our local school) was a fairy story. I joined in with everything but was very aware that this was not the only way of seeing the world.

Blu · 23/10/2007 11:41

Lorayn, ReallyTired - there are many many areas of this country, especially rural, where all the village schools are CoE. Some may be just nominally CoE, some go the whole hog - it will depend on the governors, the vicar and the Head. In the area my brother lives in there is NO public transport which serves the villages, villages are long distances apart...and every school in every surrounding village is CoE.

THAT is why sometimes people find themselves in religious schools when the schools teaching is not in line with what a child hears at home.

To some it will be fine, for others a problem.

But 'don't send your child there', when it is the only realistic 'choice' is a bit rich!

GrapefruitMoon · 23/10/2007 11:45

I would just add that MANY children, from religious families or not, going to church schools or not, are very "taken" with what they learn in RE when they start school first (maybe more so if they haven't been exposed to it a lot at home) - doesn't necessarily mean they will continue that way throughout their lives! And if you truly are serious about a child "making up his/her own mind" when they are older, they can only really do this if they've been given exposed to both "sides" as it were anyway....

mumblechum · 23/10/2007 11:47

We're in the same boat, ie ds went to the local village school although, not because it's Cof E

We had to just tolerate the occasional bit of nuttiness, eg ds being forced to rec ite the lords prayer to the head, after saying he thought assembly was a waste of time & he'd rather spend it doing something interesting .

On the whole, it didn't do him any harm at all, as he can think for himself.

Lorayn · 23/10/2007 12:12

As I said, my local school is Catholic, I dont agree with my daughter being taught there so she isnt.
I have to pay £20 a week for her to go to a childminders in the morning so DH can drop her off before he goes to work, and then leave my house at two, not getting home until four, so that I can pick her up.
That is my choice as it is everyone elses.

Swipe left for the next trending thread