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Primary education

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Original poster

C of E School - non believing attendee

77 replies

ChasingSquirrels · 20/10/2007 10:40

ds has just started in YR at the local village school - which is a VC C of E school. DH and I do not have any religion and although ds has an idea of god he says that he doesn't believe (fair enough - he says "we don't believe in god" and I say "well I don't but you can make your own mind up when you are older", but I appreciate he is a bit young for that concept).
Anyway, he has started saying prayers and singing hymms at home (when we sit down to eat he occasionally says "for what we are about to recieve...", and yesterday was singing "we've got the whole world in our hands").
I don't have any problem with this, to me the hymms are just songs and it is nice to be thankful for the fact we have food.
BUT he then asks me what these things mean, or with reference to the whole wide world song said it was silly and a man couldn't hold the world in his hand could he?
I have then been explaining that they are prayers to god, or songs about god, and explaining the concepts behind them.
THEN ds gets arsy and says he isn't going to say them or isn't going to sing them because he doesn't believe in god. Which I don't think is a good thing at 5.
Any idea on how to approach this?

OP posts:
Lorayn · 23/10/2007 14:44

Morals are a personal choice, as is religion and what one person thinks of as good teaching of morals and values another may think of as interfering.

WorkingClassScum · 23/10/2007 14:46

"Because religion and the state are separate in this country"

Aren't we talking about England here, a country which has a state religion?!?

Lorayn · 23/10/2007 14:47

You mean the Church of England ?

UnquietDad · 23/10/2007 14:54

"other things people will be taught at school, for example evolution, do not adhere to the beleifs others have yet they will still be expected to do the work"

That's because evolution is not a "belief" , it's a scientific theory with a huge body of evidence to support it and negligible evidence against. Therefore the vast majority of the scientific community supports it. There vis a key, fundamental difference between a belief and a theory.

"That which can be assumed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

Lorayn · 23/10/2007 15:19

I'm not doubting that unquiet, merely trying to find a way for the OP to explain to her child that not everything you will be taught will sit well with you.

spokette · 23/10/2007 15:22

If you believe in a theory then it becomes a belief.

Dictionary definition: Something believed, accepted as true.

Avogadros number is a theory but as chemists, we use it to calculate the number of atoms in a mole of an element. Has anyone actually verified the veracity of Avogadro's number by counting the 6.022 x 1023 atoms that should make up a mole? No. It is based upon theory which is readily accepted based on experimental calculations. Therefore chemists believe that 1 mole of carbon or oxygen or nitrogen etc will contain 6.022 x 1023 atoms.

UnquietDad · 23/10/2007 15:33

But there is evidence. That's the difference.

On balance, I think the evidence for the Loch Ness Monster (for example) is there but is shaky. When out up against the evidence for it being invented, it's about 95-5. So on balance, I tend not to believe in it.

On the other hand, gravity (for example) is a theory which fully explains why we fall towards the ground. There is no need for any alternatives involving Intelligent Falling.

emilytankengine · 23/10/2007 15:34

I bet all these people who have problems with prayers, Jesus etc have no problem with Father Christmas

ravenAK · 23/10/2007 15:37

Well, I would if teachers at my child's school were punishing him/her for not taking their letters to the north Pole sufficiently seriously...

Lorayn · 23/10/2007 15:39

In theory no matter how we have decided to interpret evidence, which is all a theory is really, an interpretation of evidence, neither the big bang creating life nor God creating life is particularly believable, just as it is almost impossible for a human brain to understand infinity, though in theory it exists.
There is some evidence that God/Jesus etc does exist, but as a race that loves conspiracy theories we could easily explain why there is not as much evidence as the theory of evolution.

And of course, we all know the world is flat, and the Sun revolves around it.

TwigorTreat · 23/10/2007 15:44

bloody hell I'm in London and STILL don't get a choice

sent my children to the community school and religion is still present in every facet including the blinkin' school logo which is a bishop's mitre fgs

it seems the very nature of schools

TwigorTreat · 23/10/2007 15:47

actually emilytankengine you could think all those people who have problems with prayers and Jesus accept Father Christmas as a very nice fabrication too

andlittlelambmakesfour · 23/10/2007 15:52

Haven't read the whole thread (should be planning next term's RE so sorry if it has already been said but you can withdraw your child from RE and/or collective worship. Personally (and I speak as a Christian and a (whispers v quietly) clergy wife) I think that if the local school is Cof E and you feel this strongly you prob should and no one would think worse of you. When I am leading collective worship I always say something like "I am going to pray now and I would like you to listen quietly and if you agree you can say Amen at the end." No-one should be forced to pray!

Sobernow · 23/10/2007 16:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GooseyLoosey · 23/10/2007 16:37

My apologies to CS for going off point but I want to address some of the issues which have been raised.

Any link between religion and morality is (for me) utterly fallacious. Christianity has in the past supported burning people, the corporal punishment of children, the subjugation of women, capital punishment and even slavery. There is nothing moral in any of this. Morality is determined by society not God (as attested by the fact Christianity has changed its mind on many of these issues over the last 500 years). If morality and religion were divorced, perhaps children might infact pay more attention to so called "moral values" rather than less.

I would object if the school taught ds in a serious manner than father christmas was real and would not leave him presents if he was not good. As a benign fantasy which all parties collaborate in to make christmas magical for children, I have no problems whatsoever.

I am not unhappy with my children being taught about religion, I am unhappy with it being presented as a fact rather than a belief.

bearsmom · 23/10/2007 16:51

Hear, hear to all your last post GL, particularly to "if morality and religion were divorced, perhaps children might in fact pay more attention to so called "moral values" rather than less."

The issue of fact vs belief is an important one. It is a real challenge to explain to a four-year-old that some of what he is being taught in school is fact and some is belief. Starting school is challenging enough for children of this age without them having to deal with this as well.

EmsMum · 23/10/2007 17:15

I do like what AndLittleLambMakes4 says:

"I am going to pray now and I would like you to listen quietly and if you agree you can say Amen at the end." No-one should be forced to pray!

Amen to that!

Opting out of assemblys doesn't seem like too good an idea though - it would tend to label those kids as different, and I can't imagine my DD being happy with either missing her fact-based class assembly or else being pulled out when they get to the prayer-and-hymn bit tacked on the end.

edam · 23/10/2007 17:50

I did feel sorry for the girls at my high school who didn't go to assembly for religious reasons - IIRC it was a group of Jewish girls plus one Muslim (other Muslims stayed). Don't think it caused any problems, though.

ScaryScienceT · 23/10/2007 17:52

Church schools are a tool of evangelism. It's the church's duty to spread the word

Like it or lump it!

bearsmom · 23/10/2007 18:12

If they're a tool of evangelism they shouldn't be funded by our taxes.

ScaryScienceT · 23/10/2007 18:15

The cost of the education is funded by your taxes.

Original poster
ChasingSquirrels · 23/10/2007 20:02

grr, just done a long post and it disappeared.
anyway;

  • it is the only school in the village
  • we lived in the village before children were even considered
  • the entire area is oversubscribed, so an out of catchment school isn't an option, even if I wanted him to go out of catchment, which I don't - I want him to go to the local school. I don't have an issue with the CofE aspects (although I would have as a teenager), but HE does (doubtless from us, but not actively - I have friends who believe and who go to church and he knows this, I don't rubbish their views, we have talked about why we don't go and I have just explained that some people believe but that daddy and I don't). I don't want him to be making an issue of it at school, but as he grows and if he feels strongly neither do I wish him to be peanalised for his views. FWIW I do have a problem with father christmas!
OP posts:
CristinaTheAstonishing · 23/10/2007 20:14

"with reference to the whole wide world song said it was silly and a man couldn't hold the world in his hand could he?"

DD who is only 2.7 sings this as "he's got the whole world in his hat" which is even sillier. DH and I "hear" only the Sisters of Mercy's version of the song (goes sthg like "he's got the whole f**ing world in his hand").

ravenAK · 23/10/2007 20:21

TSOM version!

CristinaTheAstonishing · 23/10/2007 20:24

the band, obviously, not the order!! (in case they are earthly and litigious)

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