Why is it that children who are boisterous (maybe even future bullies) are often the ones who cry and won't let go of Mummy in the early days of school?

[DumbledoresGirl]

Broad generalisation there I know, and I am not accusing your child of being a bully if they cried when they started school, but I have often noticed that the children who don't want to separate from their mother and cry a lot, go on to be, shall we say, less mindful of other people's feelings.

Why is that? I mean, from a psychological POV. I should know as I studied psychology as part of my teaching degree, but I just can't think what the reason would be.

Can't see much connection between boisterousness (is that a word?) and being a bully.

Can see a connection between those children whose parents are completely oblivious to their own child's (bad) behaviour and blame everyone else for their problems.

In a way the bullies are victims, but of their parents (bad) values

My boys are boisterous, and DS3 has been accused of bullying before now (couple of years ago). Group situation where a group of five were all victims and perpetrators of incidents over a period of time.

But none of them cried when they started school. (and two of them were the youngest in their class - including DS3)

The crier in the group of five is currently in trouble for fighting...and it was his parents who really couldn't see that their child could do anything wrong two years ago - and Dad is still questioning whether it's really his son at fault over this latest group of incidents (not involving DS3 thankfully).

(mum has taken on board what's going on this time).

ds1 has been in trouble for fighting at school, but not for being a bully

The wrost girl bully at dd's school I've come across was able to turn on the tears at the drop of a hat .

I think there is a distinct difference between fighting and bullying, for exactly the reasons you state - immaturity and under-developed social skills.

With the situation a couple of years ago with DS3, it was only when we had a meeting with all the parents involved, that the aggrieved parents realised that their children were also involved in the incidents over a period of time, not just as victims, and the school had dealt with each incident individually. Parents already mentioned above just didn't want to accept this.

The mother who initially raised the complaint took this on board (eventually), but the week before the meeting we'd both been hauled in to see teach because our two had been fighting.

She saw this as an isolated incident because her son was the instigator. When my son instigated an incident, it was bullying. When this was pointed out to her, it was like a lightswitch being flicked on.

Not sure if I'm making any sense.

You are making perfect sense unknownrb

Funny you should say that. My DS#1 was very very clingy at school for a long time. Now at 10 he is very popular at school, a 'calm and sensible presence in the playground, according to his last report and his classmates desribed him as 'kind and gentle' in his Star of the Week book. However.....when at home he isn't averse to the odd bit of mild bullying with DD and DS#2. He doesn't seem to be able to deal with confrontation that well whereas he copes fine in school. He will sometimes shout and cry with frustration and kick doors. He is the only one of my children that has any problems meeting new people and dealing with change and tends to make stupid aggressive sounding comments - 'if X does that I'll just punch him' when he feels threatened in some way. Needless to say he doesn't punch anyone - unless he's in karate class .

So maybe the bullying in some boys comes from an attempt to make up for their lack of confidence. Fight or flight in a way. As well as no attempt by anyone to teach them how to handle their feelings of aggression and anger.

And yes, the tears are often a distraction.

My boys don't cry easily when they're involved in an incident at school, and I once said I'd done them a disservice by not teaching them to cry. (I wasn't serious, but you get the drift).

(disclaimer - they're not always fighting, they're quite settled, I'm going over old ground here).

I haven't had any sons (but I did have 2 brothers). I have come across only 2 boys during dd's school career so far who have used physical aggression towards girls. One in particular was the archetypal mummy's boy.

Ah yes...the tears. My DS#1 seems to have an exagerated sense of self-pity. Things that happen to him are always much worse than those that happen to others. He and DD had a row in the car yesterday about exactly who feels illest in the car . So maybe that is part of it - nobody understands me syndrome. Having said that DS#1 under normal circs is very empathetic with others and he's always the one who comes and cuddles me if I'm upset.

Dumbledoresgirl - a hypothetical psychological explanation for a correlation between bullying and clinginess would surely be a general lack of emotional maturity. The same child that finds it hard to separate from mother at an age when most children can already do so is surely a less emotional mature child? And bullies, who don't pay attention to the feelings of others, are less emotionally mature than their peers.

And my theory would fit in with the theory Twiglett advanced of a mother that can see no wrong in her child and doesn't set boundaries, as that in itself prevents a child from reaching the emotional maturity of his/her peers.

or father.

(or both).

It is very interesting isn't it? (I am remembering why I chose to study psychology over anything else to do with education).

I used to think my children would cry when leaving me because none of them are particularly mature and at least 2 of them are painfully shy and I have always held them quite close to me iyswim, but in actual fact, none of them have ever cried on leaving me ( - should I worry about that? ) and none of them have aggressive tendencies at all, quite the opposite, they are all a bunch of wimps!

But obviously, although I might wish they could be more assured and mature in some ways, the fact that they are not displaying signs of insecurity eg crying or bullying, must mean I have done something right in the way I have brought them up.

Or possibly the child doesn't get enough attention from the parents for whatever reason and then 'takes it out' on other children. A combination of wanting to be the centre of attention/be popular but doesn't know how to go about it in the usual way??

I know a child like that.

Dd1 is a clingy child, gets upset when i take her to nursery, does'nt have that many friends, not boisterous at all, i do hope she never turns out to be a bully

She has never hurt another child apart from knocking over her sister whilst playing.

It does worry me that she might find it hard to make friends but i can't see her as a bully.

I have never noticed the generalisation of chn who cry turning out to be children who 'bully.' However I have noticed many times, teachers making sweeping generalisations about children and deciding on reasons for their behaviour based on parenting.(which seems to be happening on this thread) It's a personal bug-bear of mine.

I'm not a teacher, and I didn't make a sweeping generalisation, I commented mainly on a situation involving one of my children and his classmates.

It is a sweeping generalisation to say that chn who cry when they start school often turn out to be less mindful of other people's feelings. (My chn didn't cry by the way.)

I didn't intend any generalisation as I think you can see in my OP. I did not say that all children who cry turn out to be bullies: that would be ridiculous!

But I have noticed many many instances (both as a child, as a teacher and now as a mother) where children who later turn out to bully or who are just boisterous children, less sensitive to other's needs etc also make a big scene starting school, crying loudly and clinging to their mother.

Judging by other responses on this thread, I do not think I am the only one who has made this connection.

But no, of course, not all criers are bullies or even, not all bullies start by crying.

I understand more clearly what you mean now Dg, but crying is being seen as a 'negative' thing on the thread - people are talking about lack of boundaries etc.

DG - boistorousness is the same as bullying? The connection between boistorousness (including over-enthusiastically knocking peopole down etc) and bullying is rather risky as a theory. I know lots of boistorous 'rough and tumble' children who are certainly not bully-ish. Totally different thing - though i think the inability to measure or judge boistorousness is a sign of immaturity - and what you would expect for a young child.
I speak as the parent of an unboistorous weed, by the way!

No boisterousness is not the same as bullying, but can have similar consequences, eg other children can end up hurt by both behaviours. In one case, intentionally and in the other case, presumably, unintentionally.

I think having read only the OP that it works the other way round.
I think they possibly become aggressive because of an insecurity that is there from the start.
My little boy is very boisterous, luckily it hasn't affected the other children yet as he has only just started reception, but at preschool he was very clingy and often cried when he started there.
I know he was clingy because I am sometimes depressed and also was very pregnant then, and of course this also made him quite angry - he did hit another child there one day.
I think the clingyness and the anger both devolve from the same point, ie insecurity or fear, and this turns into anger which is then expressed through rough behaviour.

I am anxious that my child may go on to be rough at school although he has not been at all clingy there - I put this down to things being far, far more settled at home now his little brother has arrived and he is getting much more attention again/mummy isn't so ill, tired etc.

I believe he is returning to the confident and happy child he was before. But I can see why some kids are not so lucky and perhaps go on to take it all out on others later on/

Rreally interesting thread as I'd never thought to correlate the two behaviours, am fascinated that you have observed a link.