Admissions - faith vs non faith schools

[Ilovecaviar]

Hi, new poster here, long time lurker,

I have read some other admission related posts and some of you Sound really knowledgeable about admissions so I’m posting in the hopes of some advice.

We live in a small town and our only school in catchment in our town is a faith school, CofE, we are firm atheists and therefore would not send our children to a faith school. 1.1 mile away

Hence we applied to the other non faith based school in our town which is out of catchment 2.1 mile away. The school is down the road to us and its really fustrating that It is not in catchment but that’s a separate issue.

I believe the majority of the town are in catchment for both schools but given the way the catchment areas fall we are unlucky to not be.

We did not get into the non faith based school (first choice) and we did get a place at the faith school (second choice) - despite us explaining in the admission our reasons about faith and that we only included the faith based school as a second option as we were strictly told to not leave it blank etc.

We did not look at the other non faith based schools as they are out of our town, out of our catchment area, some are rated OFSTED outstanding so chances of getting in were nill and most importantly we already have 2 of 3 children settled in the nursery of the non faith school and believed based on last years data that we stood a fair chance of getting a place, i.e not all the 60 places were filled last year.

So we have appealed and asked to go on the waiting list for the non faith based school, based on our beliefs that all children should have a right to access a non faith based school given that there is an option to do so.

Children outside of the catchment area were successful in gaining admission so we know that there were places available once all children in catchment were admitted.

Do we stand a chance if we need to go for an appeal?

When places are allocated do admissions take into consideration the supporting text?

Do the admission authority allocate all available spaces or do they reserve some in case of appeals being successful or a vulnerable child moving into the area?

Thanks!

As far as I know, you will need to have other reasons that being a non faith school for an appeal to be successful. Being allocated a faith school is not of itself grounds for appeal ( nor would being allocated a non faith school be for someone who wanted a faith school). Are there any other reasons you can identify?
The supporting text isn't really relevant unless you mention something that would have affected the category you were placed in, so an EHCP or social/medical reasons if relevant.
Places cannot be "reserved" for successful appeals. The class will therefore be full. You can go on the waiting list for this school or another school of your choice.
You could also explore how "faith based" the school actually is. Some community schools are actually more "religious" than some faith based ones!

The free text box is only useful for highlighting things which are relevant to the admissions criteria. Examples:

a) you placed our elder DC in School X as it was the only one which had a vacancy when we moved. You stated that subsequent DC would be treated as 'in catchment' siblings (category 3) despite address because of that. Your email from Ms Y refers
b) we are applying for in exceptional social need category and supporting documents were submitted by hand to (office) on (date) and we attach a copy of the receipt slip
c) applicant uses a wheelchair. All the schools we have listed are fully accessible. If you cannot offer a place at any of these, please ensure the offered school is accessible as it would be perverse to allocate a school which was not

No one, of any faith or absence of faith, has a right to a school of that faith or absence of, so that would not be a relevant argument.

So that would not have been taken into account in allocations neither will it be relevant to an appeal.

Leaving aside other apparent anomalous allocations for a while, do you think there was anything wrong with how they processed your applications. Were you in the correct admissions category? It sounds as if you should have been in 'other children in catchment' for both - is that the case? And were they ahead of 'non-catchment siblings' for both?

Does it look as if the distance from your home to the school has been measured correctly?

Given the PAN is 60, this will almost certainly be an ICS appeal, which you can only win if there has been an error that cost you a place, the admissions criteria were illegal, or the decision to not give you a place was so unreasonable as to be perverse.

Unless you think there has been an error, then I'm afraid your arguments won't be relevant. No-one has a right to a non-faith (or faith) school, and the comments in the admissions form box are - as Meditrina observes - only relevant if they relate to the specific category your child should be placed in. Your preference for a non-faith school cannot be taken into consideration.

Were you considered in the correct category, and is the distance used correct? (remembering that the admissions will use a specific tool designed to measure distance, not Google maps; the criteria should say exactly how this is measured)

And no, schools have to allocate all their spaces if there is demand for them; they are not allowed to hold spaces for potential movers/appeals etc.

Particularly in moral rural areas, last year is not always relevant. We have a lot of village schools in our Trust and cohorts fluctuate with the birthrate quite significantly.

Thanks for your replies,

Wow, that is eye opening. So basically as the only school in our catchment is a faith school, in theory our children would have to attend it despite us being complete atheists and wanting nothing to do with God and religion? I can’t even comprehend how that would work. They are a practicing faith school btw.

Other reason we stated was that my eldest had a hard time settling into nursery, had separation anxiety as she had never been left before and it took a lot to get her settled in. To think of moving her now and trying to explain that would have a big impact on her mental health.

The third reason is pure logistics, even if we agreed to the faith school (which we are not) then it wouldn’t be possible to be at two different schools at the same time for drop off and pick up.

How do I check that we were in the correct category? This application is for my eldest child so no siblings at the school currently. To clarify I have 2 of 3 children at the nurseries associated with the school.

Children in the nursery class don't affect the outcome I'm afraid. And I don't think her struggling to initially settle in will fly either. Lots of 3 year olds struggle to settle in.

How closely have you actually looked at the school? Have you visited it? What do your friends who live nearby say about it?

Nurseries attached to the school have no bearing if you are in England. And they won’t take individual logistical circumstances into account because to do that for one person would mean they’d have to do it for everyone.

I do feel like we are being penalised for having only one faith school in our catchment area, especially in a small town and where the majority of the town does have both schools in catchment - is there any way to challenge the catchment area itself?

We have not visited the faith school and tbh have no intention of doing so, I have looked at their website and given the religious content it is pretty clear how they run the school which is absolutely fine as that it their choice, but it is not for us.

We did visit the privately run nursery associated with the faith school and dismissed it as I am weary of privately run nurseries and the non faith school nursery was a better welcome and atmosphere etc.

The faith school has this year it reduced its intake from 45 to 30, which is why I suspect more children ended up applying to or got sent to the non faith school than last year.

I really feel at a loss about this whole situation as it seems like I am being expected to either move across town into catchment and re-apply next year when dd2 is ready for reception (Close age gaps) and then re-apply for dd1 into year 1?

Or I home educate while we try to get a place?

Or I uproot both dds and move to another town and school altogether?

I understand your frustration. There's lots of patents in a similar boat. However, it's unreasonable of you to not have even visited the school.

If you refuse to consider the school that you haven't even visited, your options are limited. You aren't going to change catchment areas in time for September.

The problem OP is (as I understand it) that re-applying for year 1 doesn't mean the ICS rules apply so if there is no space, the rules for an appeal still related to ICS. Obviously having the younger DD on the school roll will (probably) change DD1's position on the waiting list but may not mean any appeal is successful.

Have any of the other schools that you didn't consider got space available?

That should read - 'doesn't mean the ICS rules don't apply - they do' - apologies for typing error...

Have you even visited the school and asked about none faith children and how they are accommodated? They won’t have to be in the religious classes or the religious parts of assembly etc. It’s unlikely that your daughter will be the only none faith student at the school.

You realise that even in none faith schools they are taught about religion don’t you?

I live in a village with one school. It is CofE. The next village school is CofE. So is the next one and the next one and so on. We'd have to drive 40 miles for a non faith school. Normal for this country. Same when I was at school, hence assembly with hymns, nativities etc.

We are atheists. We could withdraw our dc from the religious bits but actually, they quite like the nativity and singing Autumn Days at the top of their lungs. They're both atheists too and just accept that Christianity is part of the school.

It means nothing re an appeal I'm afraid.

If this is the only school in your catchment and children are being given places with distance as the main criteria (as you have I assume) then it is quite possible that many other children in the school will not be of that faith or practicing that faith. Is it C of E or RC? RC schools do tend to be more religious and to be high up the entry criteria you do usually have to be a practicing RC (or other Christian) family. It would be unusual to be given a place there as there are normally plenty religious families wanting places.
I would assume then it's C of E . Many C of E primary schools are no more religious that non faith schools. They mostly all do things like Nativity plays and Christmas concerts. Making Easter bonnets or having a Harvest Festival. Many primarily schools (including C of E ones celebrate non Christian festivals - like Divalli or Eid if they have children in the school who celebrate them (they will learn about them in lessons too). You really need to check out the school properly (obviously a bit difficult at the moment). Websites don't really show the true picture of a school.

@Hotcuppatea - completely understand but given that we are not sending them to a faith school, there doesn’t seem any point. We are not willing to overlook the religious aspects of a school and make do or have her excluded from the religious parts of school, to me we want to be fully involved with school life.

@myrtle yes i understand it will still apply, however if we move house then all children are in catchment and so dd2 should get a place and then dd1 I would hope would stand a better chance.

I haven’t looked at any other school as it means looking at schools outside of our town, at which point we might as well move house.

The letter you (may have) got with your allocation should have laid out which category you were in, and distance. If not you can ask the admissions authority for them. It's worth checking, but realistically if they have your correct address there is unlikely to be an error.

Challenging the catchments at this point isn't realistic to be honest; they can be challenged, but the time to do that should really have been before you applied. A catchment must be measured in a reasonable and clearly defined way; if it has been drawn to clearly omit a certain section of town, for example, it can be challenged. (I am assuming here you are talking about actual defined, in the criteria, catchment maps, and not just "the distance children admitted normally goes out to")

Reapplying to Year One will just mean putting your daughter on the waiting list, which you can do now -there is no separate intake at that point. If you have a child on roll that is likely to improve her place, but you would need to check siblings are a criteria.

When is she 5, and where are you on the waiting list? One thing you could do is delay her start point until the term in which she turns 5, which you have a right to do; this means potentially she could stay at home with you for a term or two, if she is high on the waiting list for the other school and you think it's likely she might get a space.

To be honest, if the school is not filled with faith applicants, you won't be the only non-faith family there so it may not be as bad as you fear.

Sorry, replies coming in faster than I can type.

@mynameisjune - yes we have no problem and welcome them being taught about religion and God but not as fact.

@bookworm it is CofE, mentions collective worship, trips to church, bible study etc. I have yet to meet anyone in this town who belongs to any faith other than christian or catholic

@showofhands our situation is slightly different in that there Is a non faith option which we are just outside of catchment for but up the road from, in our home town. Obviously if we were in your shoes we would’ve moved in the first instance.

Why did you put it on your application? They've allocated you a place there because they assumed you would be happy with it.

All schools in England are required to have assembly of primarily Christian character. All will do stuff about Christmas, Easter, Divali, Eid

@PatriciaHolm
Thank you. Yes I am talking about the actual catchment area for the non faith school covering most of the town but not all, increasing the catchment to include all of the actual town the school is in as opposed to neighbouring towns. (Another frustration but A separate issue)

She is on the waiting list and I have every bone in my body crossed that she gets a place that way.

She turns 5 in Mar and so we have already requested that she stays in her current nursery attached to the non faith school until Easter in the hope that it buys us more time. Failing that worse case scenario I’m going to be home schooling.

You have to remember that non faith schools teach about religion too and at primary level 'teaching' isn't always about This Is The Facts. Visits to churches/mosques/temples etc happen. You will find it very hard for your children to completely opt out of everything related to religion.
Have you put your child on the waiting list for the other school. Make sure she is on there. Distance wise she could potentially be high up the list and offered a place fairly quickly.

Sorry I see she is on the waiting list.

@bookmum08 because we were told to not leave a second option blank on the form, I made it clear that we were putting this down as our second choice as it was our only school in catchment

Also we believed at the time that we stood a fair chance of getting in at the non faith school

Obviously now the situation has changed, however we are not in catchment for any other school so quite frankly getting a place anywhere else nearby was unrealistic.

@randomsabreuse completely fine with that as it is not taught as fact and absolute.

DH and I are atheists. DC goes to a C of E school because it’s our catchment school. Don’t be disheartened. You won’t be the only non believer parents. We do our best to tell the children it’s all make beliefs. For example, I actively told DC about Buddhism and Taoism and how most people in Britain thinks it’s all BS, just like what a lot of people say about Christianity. Or that there is no way Mary is immaculately concepted, and that the most logical answer was she has a baby with a man. And just because someone says he’s a god doesn’t make him a god. That kind of thing.

When DC was asked to write a prayer, I did not tell her to have to write dear god or amen. I basically told her it’s like a gratitude journal, writing down what makes you happy or thankful today.Another example, we are home schooling now and was told to make a Easter garden. I have to look up what it is! Well I didn’t tell DC to use crosses or any such references. I told her about Easter bunnies, and lamb and chicks, which conveniently Baker Ross’s Easter craft box had! So she made a flower display with her toy bunny, sheep and chicken. HT also asked us to talk about Stormzy’s blinded by your grace and what it means. No way I’m doing that!

Don’t feel down about having to have your children go to a C of E school. I don’t think they will be indoctrinated into Christianity. There are many ways you can promote open non religious view to them.

You could of put a school not in your town as a second choice. You can put any school you want. It doesn't have to be a 'catchment' school.
But obviously that's too late now. Does the faith school have a Facebook group or PTA ? You could perhaps get in contact with them and have a email chat about what the school is really like. As these are usually parent run groups they are more honest about what actually goes on in school and what the school is like.