Admissions - faith vs non faith schools

[Ilovecaviar]

Hi, new poster here, long time lurker,

I have read some other admission related posts and some of you Sound really knowledgeable about admissions so I’m posting in the hopes of some advice.

We live in a small town and our only school in catchment in our town is a faith school, CofE, we are firm atheists and therefore would not send our children to a faith school. 1.1 mile away

Hence we applied to the other non faith based school in our town which is out of catchment 2.1 mile away. The school is down the road to us and its really fustrating that It is not in catchment but that’s a separate issue.

I believe the majority of the town are in catchment for both schools but given the way the catchment areas fall we are unlucky to not be.

We did not get into the non faith based school (first choice) and we did get a place at the faith school (second choice) - despite us explaining in the admission our reasons about faith and that we only included the faith based school as a second option as we were strictly told to not leave it blank etc.

We did not look at the other non faith based schools as they are out of our town, out of our catchment area, some are rated OFSTED outstanding so chances of getting in were nill and most importantly we already have 2 of 3 children settled in the nursery of the non faith school and believed based on last years data that we stood a fair chance of getting a place, i.e not all the 60 places were filled last year.

So we have appealed and asked to go on the waiting list for the non faith based school, based on our beliefs that all children should have a right to access a non faith based school given that there is an option to do so.

Children outside of the catchment area were successful in gaining admission so we know that there were places available once all children in catchment were admitted.

Do we stand a chance if we need to go for an appeal?

When places are allocated do admissions take into consideration the supporting text?

Do the admission authority allocate all available spaces or do they reserve some in case of appeals being successful or a vulnerable child moving into the area?

Thanks!

I don’t think legally you have a case. It’s unlikely to stand up at an appeal and you’d be better off finding other reasons for wanting the non faith option.

I can see where you’re coming from though, and you make very valid points, if you feel so strongly.

I’m a practising Christian and my children attend a practising faith school, however they also have children of other faiths and none. They do teach with this in mind I.e “Christians believe this......” rather than “We believe this......”

I teach in a non faith school, with children of many faiths and none. I wouldn’t say my RE lessons differ to what my children get. They get most of their ‘faith’ teaching at home and church, which I think is different to ‘religious education’ curriculum teaching.

Before you make big decisions, maybe speak to the school. Not all faith schools pray throughout the day, in many it is just in collective worship.

Also consider that many schools, even non faith, will have nativities, Easter egg competitions, harvest festivals etc etc

Hope you get sorted.

I know that your situation is different in that you have a non faith school locally but I think you missed my point slightly. I was highlighting the fact that you can't really feel "penalised" in a system where CofE schools are the norm and sometimes you genuinely have no choice but CofE schools. They're not even "faith" schools in the broad sense of the term. Being an atheist doesn't have any impact in the appeals process you're about to enter. I say all this as an atheist who would prefer education was secular as standard.

You realise that religion is also taught in non faith schools dont you 🤷‍♀️

Children I know at faith primary schools don't have it indoctrinated into them you know.

I actually attended a faith school and chose my own religious path as an adult without my parents having chosen a specific faith or atheist path for me......

We are a faith school, we say Christians believe, as we say Muslims believe, Jews believe..... We teach about religion, we don't try to convert!

Or here's a solution for you. Teach your children at home and then you don't have to worry about them being 'contaminated' by religion.

Thanks all. Appreciate the honest advice and opinions.

All I can do now is wait and see if we are lucky enough to get a place off the waiting list.

Looking at last years data, the faith school had 69 applicants and allocated only 34 places so I assume there must be people who want a place here who might be in the opposite situation to us.

Any advice on rejecting the second offer at this point? It means we’ve free’d up a space that someone probably wants as we have no intention of taking it.

This is no help to you now but it seems you really didn't understand how the school applications and allocations process works. It's simply done according to an algorithm and it's not too difficult to understand how that works. All the arguments you put forward on your form are irrelevant as that's just not how the system works. Where are you on the waiting list for the preferred school? Are there any other non-faith schools further away that were undersubscribed and would have places? There are lots of experts on this board who will advise if you PM them and say where you are, but I'm afraid you do need to engage with the realities of the process.

@ShowOfHandsok I get you, in my upbringing, in a large city, non faith schools were the norm as were the option of many schools, hence why I was surprised to find we only had one faith school as our option. Thanks for replying.

@Wearywithteens interesting take on it.

@spanieleyes good to know

@ivfgottostaypositive and @LittleCandle I’m not on here to cause offence.

If you reject the offered place OP, the LA has no further obligation to help you with additional offers. If you're adamant that you can homeschool and possibly move then I suppose you're no worse off in rejecting. However, it may be worth taking some of the advice up thread and finding out about the school in practice before you go nuclear in rejecting. best of luck

@myrtle ok. If we wanted to look at the next non faith based school do we approach admissions or the school?

@FraterculaArctica I don’t know where we are on the waiting list, as the deadline for admissions is 30th April so I was waiting until Friday to ring them and find out. TBH I assume they will say they don’t know yet as they are collating responses etc

I dont know if any other no non faith school has any spaces.

Just to echo a previous poster, if you're so against faith schools then why put one on your application?
You said you have no intention of sending your child to the offered school, what is your plan? It's very unlikely you'll get in the school you want by the sounds of it. So will you be home schooling or trying to get your child in a non faith school further away?

I wouldn’t reject the place. You could then be left without a place anywhere, and absolutely no way of changing your mind. The LA have legally met their obligation.

If you want to look I think you will be disappointed! I really can't imagine many schools will be showing visitors round at the moment. I would phone up admissions, ask which schools have vacancies and see how you stand.

@mummyh2016 we were told to not leave the second choice blank, as that faith school was our only school in catchment we put it down. We, at the time, felt like we had a fair chance of getting a place at the non faith school and we felt we had very little chance at getting into another non faith school that is 4+ miles away In other towns so we didn’t attempt to do that.

So I feel completely stuck atm. Obviously in hindsight we would’ve moved house or applied elsewhere!

My plan at the minute is for her to continue to attend her current nursery whilst we see if a place appears and failing that home schooling or moving house or another school in another town altogether......

Just a thought.... In some LAs you can request a list of schools that were undersubscribed ie; the ones that have spaces. Might be worth requesting that, and ‘viewing’ those on the list via the website.

@spanieleyes and @Beebie2 my thoughts exactly....I really don’t hold up much hope

@Beebie2 I am going to ring them tomorrow and talk through options with admissions. It is a bit disappointing that the chap I spoke to in admissions in the first instance didn’t say that Non of this would hold up as an appeal as he said that’s a good a reason as any.

They always say not to leave them blank, but they still have to make an offer even if you do.

To be honest, even if you’d only put the non faith school on your form, you’d have more than likely received the same offer, ie your catchment school. I don’t think there’s anything to say that you legally need to be given any of your choices.

Ps I mean that nicely! In the sense that you haven’t done anything ‘wrong’ as such, putting down the school you didn’t want as second choice, won’t have made much difference.

We’re in the same predicament - We only have 1 school in catchment. We wanted it and got it - but I can see how irritating it would be, if we didn’t want it for some reason.

@Beebie2 thanks, glad you got your place. I’m so stressed with it all!

@Ilovecaviar putting down a school that you had no attention of sending tittle child too is pointless though, you may as well have kept it blank.
Why don't you accept the place, if you don't manage to get it anywhere else start your child there in September (if schools are back open then!) and see how it is? My cousins went to a catholic primary school. My uncle is catholic (although not practising) but my aunt is Muslim (again not practising). The only difference between those and the practising catholic children was that they didn't take part in holy communion. They didn't have religion rammed down their throats or anything like yet.
You never know though, you could be lucky. I didn't get into my first choice high school, a week before appeal a space came up for me. It is unlikely as you'll find people won't be moving at the moment but you never know. I just can't see the point in rejecting the place without another one lined up, you might feel like doing it to prove a point but admissions won't care, they've done their job.

Unfortunately the British school system does not recognise lack of faith as a criteria for school allocation, even though lots of schools have faith as an entry requirement.

The whole system is an anachronistic mess, in my view, and you might like to support the secular society's campaign against faith schools: www.secularism.org.uk/faith-schools/

However, chances of major change while your DCs are at primary are slim, so I think you may just have to live with the school you have been allocated. You may find that despite the impression the website gives, the daily life of the faith school will actually be much the same as the non-faith one, which will also be obliged by law to have a daily act of broadly Christian worship.

CofE school heads, who are often non-religious themselves, have to tread a fine line between satisfying Church inspectors that they are religious enough (which may explain the website), while also not upsetting their largely non-religious pupils and parents by pushing it too much. You might have been surprised if you had actually bothered to visit.

A lot depends on individual heads. My DCs went to a CofE primary (only option available at the time, though I am a lifelong atheist) and it really was not noticeably religious. I have heard from friends who had children at non-church-affiliated school with an evangelical Christian head that they got more religion than at a church school.

@mummyh2016 believe me if I knew then what I know now.