Year 2 Maths - moved down 2 tables

[Applesforjam]

Hi,
DD is 7 and in year 2. She has been on the 'top table' for English and Maths since year 1. She has always had excellent reports and her maths report at the end of Year 1 said 'she was a talented mathematician'. However at the end of last term, they did mock sat test for maths and she got a scaled score of 105. She has been moved down two tables and it has knocked her confidence. The teacher said she had expected her to have attained around 108, nearer greater depth.

She got greater depth in the mock reading sats test so remains on top table for that.

Up until now, I never did extra maths at home with her except homework and Mathletics (which the school subscribes for) as she had such good reports from her teachers in reception in reception and year 1.
I just don't understand how she could drop down 2 tables and what has changed since year 1.

Now I have bought some workbooks and SAT papers to help the gaps in her knowledge. I feel bad now as I feel like I should have done some extra maths, maybe 10-20 mins a day in year 1 to keep an eye on things.
Over Christmas I did extra work with her and I have noticed some gaps in her knowledge.

How much extra work does everyone else do with their kids on top of homework? I'm worried that she will not do as well as expected (reaching greater depth ) in the end of year maths sats. Is KS1 results a good predictor of KS2 results? Sorry for the long post!

Bump!

Sounds quite intense to be honest. Our DD is in year two and does a lot less then yours. We found most useful way of doing maths was in “real life”, so measuring stuff out for baking etc.

Also they learn in “leaps” so gaps in knowledge now, one day it will just click and they will get it so not getting it now doesn’t necessarily tell you how they will be by time SATs come round

I did nothing for Ks1 sats prep for both my children. They are too young to be prepped by you ready for exams. By all means do things that interest and support them at home but honestly lay off the pressure.

Children do not learn in a linear fashion, sometimes they don't make the same progress, make sure the school is monitoring so that she doesn't fall behind but other that do something that boosts your DD's confidence and make her understand the 'top' table is not everything.

You honestly don't need to do any more than just the homework and Mathletics. She's only 6/7 and is still doing well. KS1 SATS should not be a big deal!! And you can't make a whole bunch of assumptions based on 1 test! She's also at the age where the children who were "slower starters" will be catching up, so moving down tables is as much to do with other children doing better, not that she is doing badly.

If you want to work on something, I'd suggest working on resilience - it's really worrying that your daughter's confidence is knocked at such an early age, simply because she's been asked to sit on a different table. She is not always going to be the best at everything.

It may well be less about her performance worsening and more about others catching her up and overtaking her.
I agree that play and real life mathematics is the best way to learn basic principles. A button box for patterns and sequencing, baking, water play around volume, measuring herself and other objects etc.
Play shops with money, music for Rhythm, times tables songs in the car etc.

Your dd has done a test where she would have scored almost full marks and you want her to do more??? I think she’s getting her anxiety from you.
It’s now considered poor practice to ‘set’ children in ability groups as the vast majority should be going the same work.
Has school told you about the ‘tables’ thing?

Oh my. Your DD is 7 years old
Leave her be! The year 2 SATs shouldn't be stressful for the children. Talk about pressure.
They have plenty of this to come believe me!

Chill. Tell her the musical tables is nonsense. Wtf is wrong with schools at the moment. A 6 year old doesn’t need to know their level of mathematic attainment in relation to their peers

Wow full on! My year 2 child doesn’t get maths homework. Their tables aren’t set according to ability. And there have been no mock sats tests. I’m happy about that. They are still so small!!

Are the tables definitely based on ability? As in the teacher told you that she’s been moved down two ability groups? I only ask as my dc always used to tell me that they were on top table or bottom group etc but the teacher firmly said that they were mixed ability and just switched around occasionally.

Relax! Maybe she had a bad day and will do better next time? Maybe she was tired, distracted, couldn't concentrate on the day?

Don't bother with the workbooks and stuff. If she's already 106 (and there's 4 months until the test) then she's doing great. Doing extra will put her off maths.

Thanks for all your messages. I think I need to chill. I think it's just the shock from going from glowing reports in reception and year 1 to now, not being where they expected her to be in maths. And some of the posters are probably right - it might be the case that the 'slow starters' are catching up. The school will have another mock test at the end of this term.

@Soontbe60 My DD told me about the tables thing - the kids just seem to know. The school does 'set' but I think they all do the same work but her table will be less fast paced than the top table I presume. I got her raw score and it was 47/60 so she was a way off from full marks - I'm not expecting perfection, it's just not what the teacher expected which I was worried about.

@scrappydappydo I'm pretty sure the tables are based on ability but I'm going to check with the teacher this week. For example in English, those on the top table were most ahead in the reading scheme or were free readers last year. The teacher has not told me she dropped down 2 tables, my daughter did. I know at least one girl who got greater depth in the mock sat math test who has remained on 'top table' this term.

Your child is 7 and knows what ability table they are sat on? The teacher should be put under review.. Appalling practice firstly and secondly awful for children's self esteem. You have clever chn like your DD constantly worried they'll be moved down and the poor little dots on the bottom table being labelled thickos from the get go, dampening any love of learning!

Your child might well not fully understand the "ability table" system.

When DD was in Year 1, the teacher decided to number her tables 1,2,3,4 ... This was entirely unrelated to ability, but so many people refused to believe this and got panicked about it.

Even if your teacher does have ability tables she might have 2 or 3 "equal" tables or considerable overlap between groups.

Also, it's only January!!! Unless things have changed the SATS test is not taken formally until May (ish) time, so your daughter still has a whole term and a bit of maths teaching to go. It's likely there were questions on the test that she couldn't answer because she hasn't been taught them yet.

Depending on how the school does maths these days it might well not be a case of tables being "top" table anyway - my kids' school follows White Rose and basically they all do the same work and then those who can/want to/finish first do the challenge tasks - and tables are basically there to minimise combinations of personalities you'd not want sitting in the same postcode area if you could get away with it.

I get you though OP - DD1 is absolutely livid at the moment that she's not doing her class greater depth group this year (I've got question marks over the decision as she did get GD in Y2 on both teacher assessment and SATs) and it's knocked her a bit.

For what it's worth though our school did NO prep work for the Y2 tests - the kids weren't even really aware they were doing anything other than a special workbook.

I can't get over them doing mock SATs and telling you the scores.
Thankfully KS1 SATs are on their way out.

People are sensibly advising you not to panic, but I can imagine reacting similarly if my DC had ‘underperformed’ against the high expectations of her teacher, and had 'apparently' been moved down two tables. Of course, it’s important that your DD remains unaware of your private concerns!

Rather than getting stuck into SATs workbooks, can you ask the teacher whether the mock test results showed any specific areas where your DD would benefit from a little more practice? Of course, your DD did very well for a December mock for a May test, so I would expect the teacher’s answer to be ‘nothing’!

I’d advise against doing any SATs past papers with your DD at home, unless the teacher specifically sets any as homework. The reason for this is that your DD might end up doing a practice paper at school that she’s already completed at home, which might artificially raise her score. This would do her no favours in the actual test.

The school does sound rather pushy, and somewhat old-fashioned in its approach. I’d keep reassuring your DD that she’s got nothing to be worried about.

This happened to my DD and she was placed on what she perceived to be a low table in the lower maths group. I spoke to the school as she was so upset being moved down and the whys and wherefors were explained and to be fair she did gain in confidence and moved up to the top table in the lower maths group. (Let's not kid ourselves, nearly all the children are v aware of what different names of tables mean and even if no tables who is cleverest etc ... it's brutally apparent.)

After a set of termly tests, she had achieved top in her class and also well in excess of most of the class above. I asked whether she could not be moved back up, and was explained not enough space and I asked could not those that achieved less be moved to the other math's set, as my DD had. But they were not willing to do this! I had to "sell" staying in the lower set to my daughter, who is v switched on along the lines that the teaching was good as she was doing really well so didnt need to move ... of course in SATS determined little person that she was she was in the top 5, proving everyone wrong triumphantly!

I can't get past the fact that they did a mock KS1 SATS test. And then revised ability groups (that aren't good practice in the first place) based on the results of that.

Did you know that the KS1 SATS results that are reported are NOT the results from the test? They are 100% teacher assessment. The teacher bases their assessment in part on how a child did in the test, but also on how the child did on every other of the 180 days they were in Y2. A child could miss the test completely and still get a valid, and accurate, KS1 SATS result.
Accurate, that is, if the teacher is worth their salt. Looks like OP's child's teacher is not capable of assessing their students without running 'mock SATS tests'.

If a teacher were confident of their assessment of a child's abilities, they wouldn't completely change their opinion based on the results of a random test on one day.

Why are you worried about SATS results op? They really don’t matter.

To get a scaled score of 105 in January is actually really good. We follow Power Maths and all the curriculum hasn’t been covered yet.

I am a 'highly involved' parent with a maths degree and 2 DC who both don't find maths easy.

A few comments:

• KS1 SATs don't matter, KS2 SATs don't matter. The only maths test that matters is GCSE. The others are only benchmarking along the way. 'Greater depth' matters not one jot (apart from parental boasting)
• Results in a KS1 mock test could be as much about exam 'technique' as maths ability. So if they were timed, is she a bit slower than others, or got stuck on a question and didn't move on, or misreading questions so doing the wrong thing.
• She is clearly at least average if not above, consider whether actually that should be considered 'good enough' at this point without fussing to do extra.
• In maths being taught to her ability/speed is important, better to be on a lower table / set and doing things at correct level than things be pitched too fast/hard.
• When DDs did KS1 SATs they didn't even know they were doing them (pre-Gove).

• If you want to do anything extra, concentrate on skills not scores. Do not do 'mock tests', but rather look at the skills they are testing and help her get them.

@TeenplusTwenties Thank you for your post. I asked her teacher which type of questions she got wrong in the mock test so that I could focus on helping on her areas of weakness. Her arithmetic score was good (22/25) but she found the reasoning paper hard so I’ve been helping her try and understand concepts and trying to help her figure out what the question is asking her to do. Is that what you mean by concentrating on skills? We have been doing questions from SATs papers together but I’ve not been doing mock test or timing her.

I’m worried about KS1 SAT results as it seems to be the view that KS1 SATs results predict KS2 results which then predict GCSE results and so on. As with any parent, I want my daughter to do well and feel confident in maths (or any subject).