Bright or Exceptional?

[Browntile]

Would like others views on this if possible please.

Boy aged 4 and one month. Obviously not starting school until Sept next year.

Able to recognise numbers up to 1000.
Secure in number bonds to 20

Can name square numbers to 100 and understands concept of what a square number is
Knows 2, 3, 5 and 10 times tables and understands concept as well as some other times tables and can invert (divide) the same
sums.
Can answer questions such as 42+3 or 68-2
Recognises shapes such as pentagon, hexagon etc

Is this just relatively bright or quite exceptional? Thank you.

I would say coached, not bright/exceptional at all really
Sorry op

Are you kidding, mama? You’d need to be bright to retain that amount of coaching if you can call watching numberblocks ‘coaching!’

No need to apologise Mama. As I think I have tried to make clear I am just surprised at how strong his maths skills were and was interested in people’s thoughts. In the main I’m really glad I started this thread. It’s been really interesting and useful. Sticking your child in front of CBeebies which is essentially where he’s gained his knowledge though is about as far away as you can get from ‘coaching’ in my mind

I know quite a few children who have gleamed an element of ‘number awareness’ from daytime tv, but this in no way transcends into an automatic intelligence for maths. A lot of what children are learning at this age, is simply rote. And hearing numbers being counted in mass repetition on a daily tv dose basis, often offers far more number exposure, than a typical reception class sitting. Children who start their learning process in this way, often struggle when they do start school. The art of concentration and ability to absorb facts without constant repetition, and more importantly..the ability to reason and apply logic; this will become more evident as they grow older.

I’m a bit at the posters saying that’s it’s coached or rote learning. My four year old really does sound like the OP’s and asked me today what was 16+17+18+19+20. I asked him if he knew and he started by adding 7 to 16 to get 23, and then adding another 10 to that to get 33. He continued breaking down all the numbers into manageable chunks before declaring that it was 90. The only reason I knew he was right was because I had checked on a calculator while he was working it out. That’s not rote learning, and certainly not coached.

What about his social skills?

My DS presented much the same as your DS at the same age and is autistic. I'm not saying your son is, just that the initial presentation is similar.

Sitting a child in front of a TV programme designed to teach children maths I would count as teaching. The term "square number" is not a term heard in every day speech. Someone had to tell him. I found actually sitting down to explain maths or playing maths games worked better, but realise this does not suit everyone. Why does it matter how they were taught it?
An intelligence for maths has to start somewhere and, when they are so young, this involves being taught it. If he is starting to build an awareness of numbers and patterns, he is starting to build an ability in maths. From what you say, it will be above what the rest of the class can do when they start school.
Is it genetic or is it nurture? Probably a bit of both, but does it matter?

I think it's pretty good but having nearly seen 4 through school now exceptional is a label best applied far later. Some children park early in some areas and then every one catches them up. Focus on enjoyment and engagement with learning.

I'm a primary teacher and I would say that for a four-year-old to be able to do the things she has described in maths, then yes, that is exceptional. The vast, vast majority would be nowhere near it; you might see it once in a while within a standard cohort, which makes it exceptional. There are quite a few "bright" ones.

Only on mumsnet would you be told that's just normally bright!

He is a clever cookie, but if he's being taught by using maths TV programmes and then followed up with the magazines with further teaching/activities then it's understandable why he knows so much about maths.

The risk now is he is bored stiff in school and becomes disruptive. Ds barely knew maths before school, but still got nearly every award for it throughout primary and found it all too easy. He is still doing well but has levelled off in secondary.

If he has a natural aptitude for maths already I honestly would try to divert him towards something less academic and more general interest so he can enjoy learning maths in school alongside his friends - learn about the world, nature, history, people, etc

I would say coached, not bright/exceptional at all really

How does a child learn maths without being coached?

How about his social skills? I would focus less on the areas where he is (without doubt in my option) exceptional and more if he has a spiky profile and is less advanced in other areas. If not the case, just make sure he enjoys learning generally and the rest will come.

I just don’t agree with a lot of this. Adding numbers at 4, is not exceptional. A lot of children can do this, and a lot cannot.
Both my children were adept with numbers prior to starting school, but there were other pointers that suggested exceptional in one child, as opposed to above average ability in the other. My youngest is deemed to be in the top .002% for maths, and it wasn’t things like adding large numbers at an early age that stood out, higher level thinking in maths, is far more about logic, than it Is about arithmetic. A lot of children in the middle and lower sets, have great arithmetic skills, but are not so great at problem solving and higher level application of those skills.
Learning isn’t linear either, as other posters have pointed out. My husband never stood out for anything much at primary school, and often seemed bored and fidgety according to his old schools reports. Needed to listen more was the common theme. Yet he had the highest mark in the A level maths and Further Maths papers in the year he took it. Studied maths at degree level and won many awards throughout his school and university life. Nothing in his early years was suggestive of that talent...so yes by all means encourage your child, but don’t label them too quickly, it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a trajectory they will follow.

A friend of mine whose daughter is in my child’s year, fell into the self assured trap of labelling her child as exceptional, perhaps indulged by a teacher who supported that view in year 1. By the time she was in year 4, she had slipped down sets, and much to her horror, didn’t even pass the dreaded 11plus. One stone at a time I say, it’s a very long path ahead!

The risk now is he is bored stiff in school and becomes disruptive.

Oh, for goodness' sake! Really??? Always has to be someone coming along to piss on the parade.

I'm an early year's teacher and that is exceptional.

I can't help but laugh at all the parents who say "my child was similar". I doubt that very much!

Mammyloveswine ...I’m not sure how many children you have taught, but I don’t know how you can dismiss other posters who have said they have had children who were doing similar at that age? There is no reason that cannot be true.
Mu husband and I both studied maths at degree level, and I have tutored maths from primary upto A level. My two certainly were doing similar at this age, and one only had a measured maths ability of 115, while the other child’s measured ability was far far higher. This skill alone did not differentiate that. If you really are interested in determining whether your child is exceptional mathematically OP, then I’d suggest having them professionally assessed by a qualified EP, although they would probably suggest you wait a few years before doing this.

People surprised at the knowledge of square numbers do really need to watch some Numberblocks! Square numbers feature heavily because those numbers are obviously square shaped!

Numberblocks is brilliant in the way it visually represents numbers and operations. A bright kid could easily extrapolate from what they show in the episodes.

OP it is exceptional that your DS knows those things, but usually 4 year olds won’t have been exposed to great maths teaching like yours has. He’s off to a great start though, and definitely keep encouraging him!

He’s off to a great start though, and definitely keep encouraging him!

Could not agree more.

Keep going with his learning while he is enjoying it and don't worry about labelling it.

Exceptional.

But I’m an English teacher 🤷🏼‍♀️

Another way to add 16+17+18+19+20 would be to split up one of the numbers to make easier to add together numbers.
18 = 10 + 4 + 3 + 1

(16 + 4) +(17 + 3) + 10 + (19 + 1) + 20 = 90

I wouldn't expect a four year old to do this, but I also wouldn't expect a junior aged child who was good at maths to work through adding the numbers together in order. So I'm not sure if you can really tell yet if it's bright or exceptional.

Maths has one right answer but there is often more than one way to get to that answer, so the school should be able to offer extension work which widens his knowledge.

Bovine 🤣🤣🤣 join the club!!!

All dc are massively different so your ds is clearly exceptionally bright. Dd started school without being able to do what you listed - just knew numbers and a passion for books. She finished year 6 with 120 across all her SATs (highest possible marks). Dtds (August babies) started school 2 days after turning 4. Could count to 10 and write the first letter of their names but no more. Now year 4 they're top sets in their classes. You never quite know when they will strive or dip so encourage so long as ds is enjoying learning.

@CheerfulMuddler but hey duggie is hilarious (dc are too old but I used the excuse of a visiting toddler to pop it on - toddler wasn't interested but the three of us grown ups had a lovely evening).

Can he recognise over 1000? By connecting what he already knows eg 1021. Is he able to tell the time? My DS was a very quick visual learner rather than inherently a genius and was able to make connections eg negative numbers by using his existing knowledge. Enjoy the fun.