Teachers answering questions/helping children in SATs

[Flicketyflack]

Hurrah SATS have finished!

DC has come home every day perplexed by some children in his class and certain kids in particular repeatedly asking for help during the tests.

I am quite annoyed as surely they are tests and if teacher help the kids it does not reflect their real abilities? Or am I naive?

He has told me that he thinks it is as much as six or seven questions each test! He also suggested certain children were 'favoured' in that she helped them more than others!

Should I report this? It seems unfair on those kids that don't ask for help.

I actually think it's better if they don't do so well in sats. One of mine got very high sat scores and is now predicted very high gcse results. The problem is his school prepped them so much with before and after school lessons, cancelled loads of curriculum subjects, had smaller classes.... His results are not a true reflection on his ability. He's a kid that has to work hard to get average results but he keeps being told at school that he isn't meeting his threshold but I really do not believe he is capable.

The problem is how govt have used sats to pressure schools. I did sats 25 years ago in year 6 (ks2). No pressure, no revision. Sounds like what they do in Scotland now. Schools should not use these to set targets for children because they should be aware of how they develop and where they are at regardless of sats results. BUT I understand that teachers don’t have enough time for this - which is what should be improved.

When I say basic, I meant that by Y6 they can do things that would be basic for a job (ie multiply, decimals, read, write).

Its all bollocks anyway and this adds to the hysteria. Theses SATS don’t help the child they are merely a tool by the Government to beat teachers with. Don’t enter into the game.

Lol! They have to do more than that in the year 2 SATS!

@Namenic

Individual targets matter for several reasons that I can think of:
. They are often (possibly always) used to predict gcse grades
. They count towards the teacher's performance targets and directly impact on the teacher's pay progression - don't forget that in a class of 30 children, each child is worth around 3% so even one child having a bad day can have a damaging effect on the teacher.
. Given the second point, teachers are stressed beyond belief. And stressed people cannot do their best work, so the quality of teaching is affected.
. If a year group performs poorly, it can also trigger an OFSTED inspection, so, yet more stress to pile on to our teachers.

As for what children need to know, you can download previous SATS papers here You will see exactly what children are expected to know at the end of KS2.
I would suggest that it is more than a basic knowledge.

If your son has noticed this extent of 'help' to the point he's quoting exact examples to you he needs to be focusing more on his own test

mookie
It's fairly hard to miss an adult talking to a child when the whole room is otherwise in silence.

Any maladministration just plays into the narrative at secondary that 'you can't trust SATs results' - which leads to baseline testing in September and a frankly miserable start to secondary school. It's so frustrating. Kids get to a fantastic standard in Y6, particularly in writing, but because it's the test results that are the basis for targets and stories like these circulate every year, we often feel that outcomes are inflated and expectations are lowered. 😡

This is very common in primary schools. I believe external invigilators should be used because SAT data is used to calculate pupils GCSE expected targets. As a secondary teacher I am often faced with unrealistic expected targets for pupils because of this.

I'd be surprised if the whole class kept hearing questions and answers, no one would be able to concentrate! If a child wants to ask a question, they put their hand up, the adult walks over to them and they have a whispered conversation. Only a child sitting very close would be disturbed and then only if they were trying to listen in!

I bet this happens a lot! There's a very fine line between a teacher helping, and a teacher pressurised to get good results basically cheating!

@Feenie

I have p4 (year 3ish). Another teacher covers my class, I take groups of children to the computer suite to do the tests on the laptops. The room is set up the same as always, they put headphones on, it’s multiple choice.

I know the pupils and I test them in groups as I feel fit. So for example, I choose to put all my able pupils together, have a quick chat with them and they just get on with it. They LOVE it and are desperate to come out with me.

I take my middling/less confident pupils together and we have a chat about how it works and about how it’s just me who sees the results and that I already know how capable they are and they are to just try their best.

Finally I take less able pupils who need support and we can pause the test halfway through and take a break if they have had enough.

The tests also respond to how they answer so if they are not doing well, the test ends sooner. If they do well, questions get progressively more challenging.

We report according to the scores, but we don’t actually give parents the scores. Parents are made aware that the tests are for our tracking and monitoring purposes and they are generally pretty relaxed about it.

There’s been a bit of backlash about the p1 testing up here as parents don’t think it should happen, but in reality the kids don’t even realise they’re sitting a test half the time....

I have spent this week carrying out unannounced monitoring visits of SATs.
Training for everyone involved in SATs is detailed and extensive to the point of being just about unmanageable. Very clear rules and guidance.

Cheating does happen. The pressures put on schools to maintain and improve standards is enormous.

I have been involved in investigations and removal of staff.

Children's results maybe annulled but we work very clearly to make sure that the secondary schools understand this. We work with the secondary school following any annulments and can assure you no children are disadvantaged by it. Assessment can take many forms and doesn't affect predicted grades.

The Standards and Testing Agency can be contacted via their website or on 0300 303 3013

Thanks for replies and discussion it has generated.

The main issue is how much help some children were given and whether it enabled them to get a correct answer when they otherwise would not therefore distorting results.

I accept my son did his best, he could have asked but chose to go it alone, if others have had more help this is not great in the longer run. It will be levelled in September I guess. Stupid system tbh as others have said.

Son is less annoyed this morning

The exam based targets for teachers are awful. Get rid of them rather than sats.

The exam based targets for teachers are awful. Get rid of them rather than sats

I don't think heads are allowed to set exam based targets for teachers anyway, at least at maintained schools. From what I gather, academies are laws unto themselves. I'd say get rid of SATs. They're not fit for purpose and undermine education.

When I say basic, I meant that by Y6 they can do things that would be basic for a job (ie multiply, decimals, read, write).

PP is correct - that's a good description of the Y2 curriculum (apart from decimals which start in Y3).

Headteachers can indeed set exam based targets.

Honestly I wouldn't report. The entire Sats system is an absolute joke and the pressure teachers are put under to get results actually imo leads to worse teaching and less meaningful learning to take place.

The whole purpose of primary school should be to empower children with confidence in their own abilities and enthuse them about all aspects of learning while giving them an idea of how they can be used in real life (spending money at the shops, science in gardening, writing letters etc) so when they get older and the more boring shit like testing kicks in, they already have a sold foundation to build on.

I used to go in a lot of different primary schools as part of my job and I've seen many many year 2 classes come away from guided reading after the Feb holidays and focus solely on comprehensions so that they can do well in the reading sats. Realistically sitting around a table with your friends and teacher sharing a story and then talking about it is far more likely to lead to a love of reading (which in turn will make you read more) than some comprehension worksheet, but the worksheet is better practice for the reading paper.

Examples like this along with lack of money meaning schools can't afford educational trips (which give concrete experiences) are ruining the primary curriculum and it's our youngest children who are suffering the most.

How a child performs in school is dependent on many things other than the quality of the teaching (the encouragement and help they get at home, whether they've eaten that day, whether they've had enough sleep the night before, whether they've got something far more important than school currently worrying them) so it's ridiculous that they're used as a singular measure of a school's success. I'd be happy to ban them.

The teacher that your son saw 'cheating.' will have her professional reputation, and that of the school to some extent, riding on the results of what a load of year 6 kids can achieve in a couple of hours and that's scary position to be in. If you think she's been a crap teacher throughout the year then you should report her. If you think she's done her best since September to give your son a balanced and interesting education and didn't want to see it undone at the 11th hour because some kid couldn't remember a modal verb or another didn't read the question properly, then I'd just leave it.

By multiply, divide, fractions and decimals etc I mean understand how to use them, convert between them freely, formulate such sums from word problems. This seems to make up most of the Y6 sats (a bit of geometry included too).

Thanks,goatinthegarden - interesting to hear his low key a testing system actually could be.

Hi there,

Hope all is well. My child just finished his sats papers. Every-time he has come home after a test he has told me the marks they give him. As I wanted confirmation to the marks prior to them officially giving their scores on the end of year report - which would be the scaled marks. I wanted the raw scores before so we can see any areas of improvement he may need. We have a he tutor and this information would enable her to assist him further.

I had emailed the teacher and copying in head of year. Their reply is that I have to wait till the end of year report to receive the scores.

Bare in mind that my child and I have not had the best relationship with his teacher know start do year 2. Her approach and manner is monotone, rude and cold. I have had a few incident which has caused concerned. Therefore, I don’t have much faith in her marking my sons papers.

Do you think I have a right to ask to see his papers?

The teacher doesn’t mark your child’s SAT papers so you’ll just have to wait like everyone else. I’m not sure if you can ask to have the papers themselves back after the scores have been released (you can get gcse papers back after results day) but that will be as your child is leaving the school.

Helloworld how old is your child?

Helloworld, these are an external exam, which means that the papers have to be treated according to strict rules - what you are asking for would be malpractice. In this instance the school is right and their response has nothing to do with your relationship with them.

If it is Y6 SATs teachers aren't even allowed to look through the papers as they are packed up, sealed and sent off for marking. Staff going through the papers would be reported for maladministration.

If it is Y2 SATs these are marked by teachers but they are not allowed to share any information until after the exam period is over. Staff are bound by confidentiality. Schools can choose when children take KS1 SATs all before a set date. You couldn't possibly be given information about these tests because some children may not have taken them yet. Leaked information would be maladministration. The integrity of the test system put in question.