Can you refuse a school place/catchment if it is a church school?

[flightlessbird1]

We are moving to an area where the two nearest primary schools are C of E and Catholic (it's a rural area). We will be out of catchment for the closest non faith school and it is also 4 miles away (although we would be willing to drive this far).

We are not religious and, although I have nothing against church schools, I do not want my DC to attend one. When placing my DC (8 and 10) in a school in the new area, the council will automatically offer places at these two schools. Can we refuse these offers on the grounds of atheism? Is it possible to stipulate a non faith school? Anybody else had this experience? They are currently in non-faith schools so I have never had this problem...

Thanks all!

Church schools remain so because they own and maintain the buildings and receive less state funding than state owned schools

You won't be offered a place in a Catholic school if you are not Catholic, so don't worry about that

Neither of these things are true, please make sure you speak to the schools involved directy rather than relying on someone's personal experience.

Good to hear from a vicar mostly. It seems then that it depends on the school as to how religion is taught/embedded. Back to the drawing board!

I know someone whose kids went to the oversubscribed school, it's rated outstanding and has a 100% 'happiness rating'

DC2 went to a C of E primary. I was certainly never asked to be open to Christianity. I'm a governor there and we wouldn't ask that of staff, never mind parents. It would be discriminatory for a start, and a bit daft as very few of our intake have any faith background at all. I've found it much less inclined to teach Bible stories as the literal truth than the non-church school DC1 attended, where a number of teaching staff as well as the head were committed Christians.

Take a look around the likeliest schools and be ready to ask questions. You don't want round-the-clock prayers and attempted indoctrination; from what you say you're after a caring place where your DC's happiness is valued. You can get that from a church school if you do your homework.

First of all, you need to establish if the school is CofE Controlled or Aided. Aided schools usually run their own admissions and are more closely allied to the Church. The Controlled schools are usually a lighter touch. Both will take advice from the Diocesan Education Officer and staff but often the Aided schools are more closely allied. They both, however, have to follow the agreed LA wide syllabus on teaching Religion and it should take up a proportionate amount of time each week in addition to assembly time.

Many children go to CofE schools end come out with healthy scepticism! They are far more likely to follow your lead than the local vicar! Mostly it’s light touch with festivals celebrated. Easter can be a bit too much but you can counteract that with a discussion at home.

Obviously some schools take the Religion more seriously than others so look at the web site and look at the newsletters. You can see what they are doing. No sensible school slacks on Maths, Literacy and a broad and balanced curriculum! Lastly, go and have a look and don’t be afraid to ask questions. A good school will be honest and open with you but a decent enough school near where you live is better than travelling for miles just to avoid CofE.

I work in education and have visited dozens of church schools. I promise you, they vary massively. Very broad brush:

Catholic schools - religion plays a huge part and permeates everything. Likely to have a high percentage of Catholics. SLT and many staff will be practising Catholics.

CE voluntary aided schools - church has a greater influence because they own the land and the school is the employer. Governance Board Foundation governors (so appointed by the church) must outnumber all others by 2. Day to day religious 'presence' varies but likely to be less than Catholic above but more than CE VC below.

CE voluntary controlled schools - on the GB there must be 2 Foundation governors but not more than a quarter. So the church does not have a majority interest. Day to day religious 'presence' varies but in some schools is barely detectable.

In CE schools, HT and senior staff usually need not be practising churchgoers but are required to be 'sympathetic'.

Academy church schools can be any combination of factors.

So do and visit - you might be pleasantly surprised. I would also say (despite being an atheist myself) that church schools are some of the loveliest and most delightful I have ever been to with the most welcoming, loving, caring and inclusive ethos.

It's definitely not true that you won't be offered a place in a Catholic school if non-Catholic. Being a practising Catholic will be very near the top of the admissons criteria but if there are still spaces when all Catholics have been given places, they will fill up their places with anyone else who applies according to the rest of the admissions criteria.

I did make it clear that my comments were based on my own experience where I live.
What I said about CofE schools is exactly what the local vicar told me when I asked him.
Admission to any Catholic school near me requires a written recommendation from a priest.
Obviously it appears that in other parts of the UK it is all completely different.
Sorry for giving my personal experience.

You do realise that even in the non faith school, they will be expected to partake in a daily worship of a broadly Christian nature? I think you are worrying over nothing tbh. Most schools are light touch but go and visit and see for yourself. There are way more important things to consider about a school than this imo.

What is the worst thing that could happen? That you child believes in God and will forever believe in God? That s/he will never be able to apply their own thinking and make an informed choice about religion when they are older?

I don't get this fear of sending your child to a C&E school. If anything children learn discipline and other good values. I'd take that over non-faith schools that give them no discipline or instill values in them.

If anything children learn discipline and other good values.

Can you provide evidence of values taught in CofE schools that are not taught in community schools?

Or of differences in behaviour standards in non-selective CofE and community schools with comparable demographics in their student population?

I’m so tired of all this made-up bullshit, you see. Because all the evidence shows faith schools only do ‘better’ when they can cherry-pick predominantly middle class kids.

I don't get this fear of sending your child to a C&E school. If anything children learn discipline and other good values. I'd take that over non-faith schools that give them no discipline or instill values in them

What an offensive load of bullshit.

Church schools are some of the best performing and some of the worst performing. The best ones generally rely on cherry picking pupils whose parents play the admission game; the worst ones tend to be in areas of rural deprivation where there are no other options.

The only schools in our LA who manage out pupils with extra needs are all Church schools. Excellent examples of that lovely Christian ethos....

Be aware that any change in the Diocese direction or a change of head or local vicar can radically alter the ethos of a school, so what you sign up for may not be what you actually get. Our local Diocese academy is, frankly, rubbish - the Diocese has insisted that all church schools that convert must join its academy. All the church schools that have been put into Inadequate or Special Measures have no choice but to join the Diocese academy, therefore the academy is overwhelmed by schools which need significant support, and it can’t cope or deliver school improvement. The good church schools won’t touch the academy with a ten foot pole.... Beware the law of unintended consequences!

Hmmm, the easily offended. Everything they not agree with is offensive.

The Church of England runs church schools, where generally children of all faiths and none are welcome. The Catholic church runs faith schools where you generally have to be Catholic to get in.

Hmmm, the easily offended. Everything they not agree with is offensive.

Did you have any evidence to back up those assertions, then?

The Church of England runs church schools, where generally children of all faiths and none are welcome.

If a CofE school is oversubscribed, their admissions criteria will prioritise children from the local church and other churches over other local children for at least half of their places.

The younger siblings of the church children are also prioritised, but do not usually count against the ‘church’ quota, therefore further reducing places for non-churchgoing local children.

OP, this is a non issue, the church bit will be church 'lite', you won't be asked to prove anything regarding our own beliefs and your children will not be indoctrinated. If it's a close-by school take it and just don't worry, concentrate on your move, which sounds a hassle. Good luck

If a CofE school is oversubscribed, their admissions criteria will prioritise children from the local church and other churches over other local children for at least half of their places.

The younger siblings of the church children are also prioritised, but do not usually count against the ‘church’ quota, therefore further reducing places for non-churchgoing local children.

#NotAllChurchSchools

You can't generalise, you need to look at each school's admissions criteria. I am a governor at a VA C of E school. Our admissions criteria take no account of faith or churchgoing and we have consistently and unanimously (including not only the foundation Govs appointed by the local church and the Diocese, but the vicar too) voted to stay that way.

We don't ask parents to sign up to anything, but it would be also a mistake to consider the school’s ethos "Church-lite" - it is at the heart of what our school is (and with the new SIAMS church school inspection landing shortly, I suspect many C of E schools will be making it more explicit). We ask teachers to be supportive of our ethos. The vicar comes in weekly, there are prayers and hymns every day, grace before lunch, a voluntary prayer group for those who wish to attend and crosses all over the place. Christian values are human values - our parents of all faiths and none accept that. We teach about all religions, we teach the same PSHE course as our local non-church schools, and RE is an academic subject not an article of belief.

Having said all of that - I entirely agree that it is madness that the Church still has so huge a place in state education, and that community schools have to have an act of Christian worship everyday. Definitely bear that in mind before you discount a C of E school in principle - they are all different and you could get a nasty shock.

Ps - we obviously aren't indoctrinating, or if we do so we are incredibly bad at it, because our parish church has a tiny congregation.

You’re right, I shouldn’t have made a blanket statement. All I’ve seen do, but it’s good that yours doesn’t, really really community-minded and to me brings the schools closer to their original mission.

Is there any data on faith in the admissions criteria, do you know? I suspect it would be too huge a job for anyone to collate unless really committed.

We found this report interesting although I don't know if there is a more recent one now: schoolsweek.co.uk/church-schools-accused-of-discriminatory-admissions/

The new SIAMS framework expects schools to have regard to their community places and justify exclusionary criteria - can't remember the exact wording but that is the jist. It feels as though the C of E is pushing but some Dioceses are pushing right back.

Full disclosure - the bit in the final evaluation schedule simply says that in a Good church school,
“The leaders have developed a Christian vision that reflects its local context. The school’s policies on admissions demonstrably reflect its Christian vision by being welcoming to pupils with disabilities and learning difficulties, and by being inclusive of different faiths and of pupils from diverse backgrounds.”

The SIAMS framework is worth reading to understand where C of E and Methodist schools are going and being judged against - www.churchofengland.org/sites/default/files/2018-04/SIAMS%20Evaluation%20Schedule%202018_0.pdf

My DDs attended a CofE VC junior school and they had exactly the same admissions criteria as the community infant school next door. To not admit children from the village who attended the infant school would have been total folly. Many VC schools and indeed VA schools do this if they are the only school in the village. Where else would the children go if they didn’t qualify?

We do have a secondary modern VA that has a tiny catchment but takes CofE children from a wide area. This is selection and many are not happy about it. I have also seen VA schools be manipulated by the Diocese and a new Vicar into changing the criteria to exclude children who have traditionally gone to a school because they lived in the catchment area. By reducing catchment and asking for church affiliation, schools can get rid of social housing estates. This is what the Vicar proposed. The children from the estate would have had a very long walk to get to another school which would not have had enough places for all of them. Luckily the governors understood the problems with this proposal and they continued with their traditional catchment area but it was not a Christian proposal in my view. It stank.