Can you refuse a school place/catchment if it is a church school?

[flightlessbird1]

We are moving to an area where the two nearest primary schools are C of E and Catholic (it's a rural area). We will be out of catchment for the closest non faith school and it is also 4 miles away (although we would be willing to drive this far).

We are not religious and, although I have nothing against church schools, I do not want my DC to attend one. When placing my DC (8 and 10) in a school in the new area, the council will automatically offer places at these two schools. Can we refuse these offers on the grounds of atheism? Is it possible to stipulate a non faith school? Anybody else had this experience? They are currently in non-faith schools so I have never had this problem...

Thanks all!

Interesting....The situation is a little different where we are moving to - the church schools are good but none are oversubscribed (apart from one Catholic secondary which is miles away). The only school that is oversubscribed within a 10 mile radius is the non-church school.

Ok - you have all helped enormously. We have only just found out that we are moving so my ignorance on this issue is slightly justified. The DC would start in September (if we manage to find somewhere to live!) so would it be worth ringing now or after the places have been allocated in April?

Changing schools as an in year entry is stressful! I did it and was really fortunate as my preferred school had a place in the year my ds needed.
However just as an added stress factor for you to consider....I have known of three families who have lived area with primary aged children mid year and all 3 of them had to place their children in different schools, meaning 2 drop off and pick ups across town each day.

As someone else said, unless you are planning to move again before they go to Senior School I’d be focussing on being in the right catchment for that, then see what junior schools are feeders for that school.

I went to a CofE school. I loved the bible classes and went to one optional one, one lunchtimes a week. It was in the cosy library or outside under a big oak tree. It was a lovely atmosphere. Great stories. I asked for a pocket (non children’s) bible for my 7th birthday. In school time Learnt the Lord’s Prayer and some (children’s) hymns.

My friends kids have just left the same school a million years later and I’m not sure they could tell you it’s a CofE school or recite the LP. They can, however, tell you a but about most religions.

I’m an atheist. In fact there probably should be a better term for people like me who 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄 at all religions. It didn’t do me any harm and they aren’t aware.

I really, really don’t think that being CofE is an issue at all as it’s pretty much the ‘base’ option for schools in the UK (and largely the minimum is done to meet the requirement) where as other religious schools ARE set up in order to provide that teaching. Iyswim.

the religion bit was totally light touch i.e. the vicar came in once in a blue moon to attend assembly and the carol service was held in the local church
The same as my childrens' non faith primary then!

I'm confused as to why you think places for your dc year groups are allocated in April. That is not relevant to your in-year applications. Either the appropriate classes are full or not when you apply. If you are needing to move quickly why wait until summer?

Cross posted with you.

If it was me I’d do as Penguin suggested and start a thread asking about those particular schools.

It seems odd that only the non R school is oversubscribed. It may not have anything to do with religion though. Especially with regards to the CofE school.

You could ask MN to pull this thread and name change for the new one.

I would do as much research as you can in advance - research schools, places to live, where catchments are - in our old area the wrong street meant you were allocated miles away. Living outside the front door of preferred school is normally your best bet but is that viable? In a rural area it may just be somewhere in that village would get you a place. Would ask advice now. You can only apply for mid year transfer half a term in advance but the more information you have the better.

Do that and contact the school you’d prefer ASAP.

Thanks incredibly and I agree that when you say 'atheist' that is has different connotations for different people! My kids are in a non-church school now but still have RE, prayers in assembly and harvest/christmas celebrations at the church which I am totally on board with as we have educated them on all sorts of beliefs/ways of living.

I just wasn't sure about how much of the curriculum is taken up with Christianity. Mumsnet was my first port of call (obviously!) and my next will be the schools themselves. I just wanted to get a feel for it - it is completely alien to both of us in terms of our upbringing/education.

Are the CofE schools voluntary controlled or voluntary aided? Voluntary aided ones tend to have more church influence and input than VC ones.

Although I am an atheist, my DC spent several years at a VC CofE primary (moved mid-year to an area where nearly all the schools were religious and/or oversubscribed, so did not have much choice) but somewhat to my relief it was a lot less religious than I expected.

Very few of the staff were practising Christians, to my knowledge, day-to-day assemblies only made a token nod to the requirement for them to be of 'a broadly Christian nature', RE was not taught from a 'Christianity is the one true way' perspective, festivals of other faiths were noted and celebrated etc etc. The only real religious indoctrination was an assembly by a minister from the associated church once or twice a month, and she was cringeworthy enough to put my DCs right off...

And unfortunately due to the UK school system/established church, you would not necessarily do any better at a non-church-affiliated school. I had friends with children at one local primary school which was officially a community school but actually had an evangelical Christian head who pushed the 'daily act of Christian worship' to its limit, and there was nothing the parents could really do about it, apart from withdraw their children from assemblies etc if they felt very strongly about it.

I still think faith schools and selection by faith have no place in a state school system, so I support the National Secular Society campaign about it: www.secularism.org.uk/faith-schools/choicedelusion.html

We are having to move over the summer for a whole series of stressful reasons with our current property......

I thought April because the deadline for applying for school places is Jan? I am clearly being thick about this. The DC will be going into year 3 and year 5 (they are both early September birthdays) hence me saying that they will be 8 and 10 when they start. But I see I have confused the issue with that - so year 3 and year 5....Sorry I sound like I know nothing (probably true!)

Most religious schools are extremely light touch and there are some non faith schools where individual teachers/staff can proselytise hard on the kids. Complaining about that behaviour is a lot easier if the school is definitively not of the religion, as you're not up against "it's the schools faith etc."

Given that changing schools can be stressful and difficult for everyone, making choices that lower the risk of things you disagree with is a good idea.

Of course there's no way I'd take the 100% risk of imposing driving commutes on the family over the slight risk of a dodgy religious experience if I visited and found the school like the majority of CofE schools in England.

Also the oversubscribed school is not oversubscribed because it is non religious at all. It's because it's bloody excellent!

C of E schools are usually community schools and tend to be quite light on the religious aspect of the education they provide. Many are C of E schools because historically in this country the church was the only institution to build schools and offer education.
Non faith state schools are much more recent.
Church schools remain so because they own and maintain the buildings and receive less state funding than state owned schools.
They usually get very good OFSTED reports.
(I am in London, so the above is based on my experience here).
My DC went to a CofE primary and it was very mixed and open to all.

You won't be offered a place in a Catholic school if you are not Catholic, so don't worry about that.

See what school/s you are allocated and visit asking about religious affiliation as necessary. I doubt it would be as intense as you fear, most faith schools also have community places.

Another thing to bear in mind is mid year admissions don't operate over the school summer holidays (the starting school ones do) so you need to go half a term back so May half term and apply then at the latest.

We moved in mid July and got our first choice oversubscribed rural school a week later but I wouldn't recommend leaving it that close - we had a big battle to get it through in time.

Thanks sirfred that's exactly my dilemna - my choices are limited and I want to make the best choices for the DC without having the nightmare of driving them miles to school.

You can apply at any time for a mid year transfer (up to half a term in advance of being able to take up place) normally via LA. They only have to offer you a place when you are within that LA but if there's a place available before and you are not in LA but can commute you can get it.

it wouldn't bother me too much if a good school. All state schools in the UK have to offer a 'broadly christian' education anyway I believe.

To give a little insight my eldest was educated in a voluntary aided C of E school which is purely governed by the church where as I suggest your c of e schools will be voluntary controlled usually in a rural location due to the history of the area. My youngest attends a local authority school without any religious affiliation as it's across the road from where we live now and is an outstanding school so would be daft to do anything else. So far the only differences are in the c of e school the vicar was a regular part of school life though his activities were often non-religious - art club for example. The kids went to church every ash Wednesday and they all did a prayer at the end of the school day. My youngest talks about God more than my church educated child ever did. I think your schools will be vc ones which are an even lighter touch so no tangible difference to an la school to be honest.

I went to a faith school, after moving from two other primary schools which were non faith schools. It really caught me off guard.

I started in year 4 at the faith school. They would say prayer, when we first came inside, break time, before lunch, after lunch, before home time. At first I wouldn’t take part, but I got told off and I had to take part. I learnt the prayers quite quickly. But as somebody who didn’t follow faith, it was a lot.

Also used to the visit the local church a lot, everybody had holy communions except for me.

This was going back about 15 years ago, I’ve heard a lot has changed and faith schools are very good. I also know somebody who lied about their faith to get their kids into a faith school.

I agree. I’m totally happy for them to learn about all religions and visit wherever, make food/lanterns/dress up/whatever as long as it’s taught as the beliefs & customs/traditions of that faith.

With CofE I guess I’m more laid back because my state infant & junior schools were CofE and most of my friends kids schools are state CofE and it’s always been very light touch in school time and despite me loving the bible classes/lunch sessions it still didn’t feel ‘heavy’

As for the forms re religious acceptance. I don’t know anyone who has signed them, but maybe they did 🤷🏻‍♀️ My friends are like me, we’d sign them if we had to, it means jack shit in reality. It’s not like you’ve given them permission to take them off to some religious cult camp or anything.

What makes you SO sure the over subscribed school is excellent?

All schools with be teaching about religion. There will be an agreed syllabus. This is the one for Somerset. www.amvsomerset.org.uk/whats-new/

I'm a vicar and do assemblies for the local C of E Aided school. I'm very aware that most of the children are not from practising Christian families and that some are from other faiths so assemblies are mostly about sharing the Christian stories and asking children to think about their response. It is very two way. I was taught when using prayers to say that prayers are optional. If they want to join in they can say amen but they don't have to. It is their choice. A daily act of worship of a broadly Christian character is a statutory requirement but it doesn't look like a church service.

They usually get very good OFSTED reports.

As a group, they only get better results and reports where they are able to select their intake - ie where they are oversubscribed so get to restrict half (or more) of their intake to children with parents who meet the religious criteria.

Like all schools that are able to cherry pick the children of more organised and committed parents, they produce better results.