Poor french teaching at KS2, WWYD?

[gallicgirl]

My DD is in Y3 and started learning French this year in line with KS2 national curriculum. School is usually very good but they really don't seem bothered about learning MFL and I feel the teaching is just ticking a box.

They use a well established program with a virtual teacher and I can understand why this has been chosen rather than paying for a dedicated French teacher. The demographic of the school wouldn't see parents pushing for good MFL teaching, they're more concerned with improving literacy and numeracy and few parents speak a second language.

However, I studied French to degree level and could teach DD myself if I really had to. She wouldn't be particularly keen on it and I feel it's more fun to learn with classmates.

So the question is, do I have a word with the teacher, not in an accusatory way, but in an attempt to find out why DD isn't learning much?

Do I skip the teacher and make a query of SLT?

Or should I just grit my teeth and teach her myself?

As an added complication, I'm a parent governor so I'm a bit narked that the school aren't performing at their best here.

At our secondary, children are randomly assigned to a language and they all start from scratch. They don't take account of what they learned in primary. Many will learn a little French in primary but be switched to Spanish at secondary. They don't set them in the first couple of years, they may do later. Other schools might be more inclined to set.

Grammar did French and German or Latin and comprehensive does Spanish and French, set from year 8. Teaching in the grammar was excellent, in the comprehensive its very variable and changing teachers, some cover ones for long-term illness who have more limited French than the kids. It's a shame as DD has gone from languages being her favourite subject to talking of only taking one language, still its maths and engineering's gain which they are much better at teaching.

I'm a KS2 teacher. I'm fluent in French so know the subject well and enjoy teaching it. The kids all enjoy learning it. Even so, I barely have time to fit in more than about 20 minutes a week. The curriculum is packed and MFL is never a focus for scrutiny so it tends to get squeezed.

I think that at least anything they pick up now is a good foundation and encourages an interest in other languages.

Unfortunately schools are judged by achievement in maths and English so this is where priorities lie. There is also more to cover in the national curriculum than there are hours in the school day. Although I get your frustration I think it’s important to step back a bit. Your child is year 3. Are they happy? No friendship issues? Positive attitude to school? Making progress in most subjects? Do they get PE, PSHE, music, history, geography, DT, art, English (inc. reading, writing, grammar, spelling), maths, science, RE, computing, and a bit of French? Is yes to all the above, then your school is doing OK. Cut it some slack and have fun with french at home.

I’m pretty sure MFL is not a foundation subject at primary, and therefore it’s entirely dependent on whether or not your school rates it as important. Secondaries tend to start from scratch anyway.

We have half decent music and French at our school, but only because our HT rates them. Conversely our geog and history is not particularly great.

MFL is a statutory part of the curriculum from KS2 onwards. There is no prescribed language - it can be any modern or ancient foreign language. The reality is that most schools pay lip service as it's unlikely to be an Ofsted focus - unless you are in a long-term outstanding school perhaps

As someone with a second language your view is bound to be coloured by that, ime the vast majority of parents want their children to be secure in reading writing and maths with some humanities at primary.

The reality is that there isn't always the money or qualified staff to add on languages, music, drama, art etc

Those will come at secondary and wouldn't be big issues for me at primary.

Mfl is v basic in primary. I used to do it as a supply using a Twinkl program and even with my ancient French o level I saw loads of mistakes. Also there was way to much dull writing rather than speaking.

My sons seemed to swap from French and Spanish at primary. At secondary they had quite a good system. The first term in Y7 they did a few weeks each of French, Spanish and German then they chose one and were taught in mixed ability classes. In Y8 the ones that showed an aptitude chose an additional language - I think they got the same choice plus Japanese. The downside was in Y9 they had to come in early to study it!

They were also allowed to give up languages at GCSE which was a blessing for my severely dyslexic older son.

NotAnotherJaffaCake - a modern (or ancient) foreign language is compulsory at KS2 according to the national curriculum.

This would be a good thing, except that the provision is so patchy, perfunctory and poorly-delivered in many schools that it risks putting children off learning a language rather than encouraging them.

Before I offered to teach it on a volunteer basis at the village primary where my dc were, the Head used to do it by just handing out a list of Spanish words once a week at most. They pay me now, and my teaching time provides the other teachers' ppa time.

It’s not dull to write and read another language when it’s beung taught. It is an academic subject. Since when is just speaking English ok? Of course we have to read and write it.

OP. My DD had no MFL at primary. At private secondary all the others had come from a prep school and had done French. After a term in Y7 she caught up! DD now has a MFL joint degree. She had a talent and the school recognised it. Some state secondaries don’t do this and frankly, many parents don’t care at secondary either as the subject is readily dropped. Just look at secondary threads on MN! Or they think MFL is just about having a quick chat on holiday or purely vocational. It’s not.

However when DD has children she insists she will want them to be bilingual. Therefore op, crack on! Primary school won’t help at all.

Foreign language teaching in the UK is abysmal.

Other countries manage to get their school students happily talking and writing two or more foreign languages.

The level achieved for GCSE is often way lower than the level 15 and 16 yr olds reach in other countries.

I did Primary PGCE with French. I now specialise and only teach French in different primary schools for half a day a week in each. This week I had Year 3 writing a character description about an alien they had drawn. It doesn't have to be basic but it has to be taught regularly. Lots of songs and games to help learn the vocab. If you do decide to teach her yourself join the languages in primary schools Facebook page for ideas. Have a look at Lightbulb languages. This offers a scheme for free which you could follow.

Molly: it’s abysnal because no one values it. We can’t decide which language, when and how to teach it and expectations are low or non existent. We assume our DC will be useless at it and it’s the first subject many DC drop. No one puts any effort in because they won’t learn vocabulary and grammar.

I think the brightest DC can manage MFL and all DC should make an effort. Parents don’t agree so we come out of the EU and expect everyone to speak English. Mostly they do. Better than us in some cases.

Foreign language teaching in the UK is abysmal. Other countries manage to get their school students happily talking and writing two or more foreign languages.

When I have been in French and German schools, I have seen nothing to suggest that the actual MFL teaching itself is any better at all than that in English schools. What is very different is the general attitude towards learning a language. And, in the case of English, the massive exposure through films, music, social media and advertising, which gives young people a huge motivation to learn it.

In English secondary schools, what I have largely seen are hard-working, enthusiastic, well-trained, well-qualified MFL departments who are fighting a losing battle... except in the private school I worked in, where parents and kids saw languages as valuable, interesting academic subjects and a source of cultural richness. Uptake st GCSE and A Level was great.

As a governor, could you offer to go in and help with a 'french day' to raise the profile of MFL in the school? Or help with curriculum planning with the teacher in charge of MFL? Offering to help make a change will go down much better than just saying it's not being done correctly.

I feel your frustration and see this every single day! Primary schools find this soooo hard as they often don’t have a teacher fluent in another language and they are obsessed with numeracy and literacy (thanks OfSted!) and they don’t realise that learning a second language will actually help with literacy skills anyway!

I was a secondary MFL teacher, then head of primary MFL and went on to found a company which specialises exactly in this. I even created the UK’s ONLY primary MFL qualification for children. (If you’re interested it’s www.lingotot.com)

No they should not be simply learning “a few words” at primary school and I really wish OfSted would be more proactive when they see poor mfl teaching in primary - it is a compulsory subject afterall!

I am from a very deprived area and my local schools have additional budget they can allocate and even where schools don’t, they should be doing better than this. Drop me a line via my website above if you’d like some more advice. I have created a lovely document that links literacy targets with MFL objectives which often sways headteachers :)

Schools were told they had to teach this. They were not given extra resources and at the time (not sure it's changed) there were no primary trained language teachers.

Often the teacher of French o other MFL is who ever has the higher qualification which if you are lucky is an A Level.

Do you have the time to volunteer OP

I meant dull writing in the sense of endless worksheets associated with the scheme. Didn’t say it was dull to learn, it was the way it was being taught. There wasn’t enough speaking.

I was so horrified with the awful teaching of French to dd when she was in Y3 that I volunteered to go in once a month and do it myself.
To be fair there was no budget for extra resources or teachers and her teacher spoke NO French at all so I don’t know how the poor woman was supposed to teach it .
Is that an option for you OP?

I think part of the issue is that there is no set time for it.
You have 30 hours in the week to do english(x5),maths(x5),topic,RE,PHSE, art, PE(x2), SPAG, science, guided reading,computing, lunch and playtime. That's just the basics.
Then in y3, French gets added in and swimming.
Y4 you have all that plus an instrument. But the hours stay exactly the same.

Where I'm from the school hours increase as the children grow and the curriculum increases too. So there's no squeezing in and the added subjects get the same amount of time as everything else.
When you're behind though, or need extra assessments, or have a play/activity to prepare for or all the other random unpredictable stuff that happens in the school day, it's easy to skip the 30 minute(have to teach it yourself) lesson .

I’m sure I remember a thread on here from a primary teacher who had been told she had to teach Spanish to her class, when she had never spoken a word of it in her life. But she had no choice. So this situation doesn’t surprise me at all sadly.

I wouldn’t try to formally ‘teach’ French to your yr3 DC, I would just throw words and phrases every day as part of normal conversation.

I’m a primary MFL teacher and I see this all the time in schools, to my despair sometimes as schools I’ve worked at have run out of budget every year for the past few years. It’s all down to funding and expectation.
The schools didn’t receive specific mfl funds when it was introduce to the curriculum again and even schools that were doing it before that are starting to run out of budget because they are being stretched so thin.
As a lot have said, many schools don’t value it and if you don’t have a head who understands the value it’s a losing game. As a governor though you and your colleagues surely have opportunity to ask about subjects I.e. an update from the MFL coordinator on what they are doing to achieve progression as per the NC? It’s definitely worth asking as they will then feel they have to explain their stance and rectify if needed (if they care)?

In our school the PTA run a 'french cafe' once a year - the children help out and everyone gets to ask for croissant/pain au raisin or whatever in French. Could you possibly spearhead that sort of initiative in your school - either run by Governors or PTA (or both?). Parents and younger siblings also invited at end of day - which provides a bit of fund raising to help cover costs. Its fun and helps raise the profile of MFL teaching and learning.

There are so many KS2 teachers who don't speak a language and time is so limited.

I play games in my class and we do some conversational bits of French. So happens I have an A level and a French step mother. We'll look at Latin too when we do Romans next term - a private education back in the day meant I studied it up to 6th form and I always enjoyed it.
It's the same with music which often gets left - I have a music degree but run out of time (and resources) to teach music properly. Very frustrating.