Thoughts on primary school choice for black children (or any other minority)

[samosamo]

Hi,

My question is specifically about African/Caribbean children, but I think some of the issues will be pertinent to other children also.

My child will start reception in 2019. We are moving from out of town so we might as well move to a location where we are likely to achieve a school that we want for our child. We want to be in a community and to have our children play with others in their school who live down the road so we will be moving for the long haul.

My child has just started to notice 'difference'. She has started talking about being black and very recently about others being brown and white. I am careful about this, careful about a language of inclusion while also instilling a sense of belonging and love and pride in herself. I haven't yet tackled how to talk about black and white, because they are such nonsense terms and kids see through nonsense so quickly.

When it comes to schools, I want her to have allies, meaning, I don't want her to be alone. While I am sure she will have white allies, just as I had as a child and do in my life, I also needed some black ones at school, and there really weren't many - sometimes any. 30 years has passed, but just in case the playground hasn't changed as much as I'd like, I want a school that has a fair few ethnic minorities and specifically black children.

One of the schools I like is in an area with quite a high proportion of ethnic minorities, but nowhere near that proportion of ethnic minorities in the school. Partly this is explained by the fact that it's a church school, but I suspect not as much, and moreso because it attracts parents who are middle class (therefore more likely to be white) who move to the area for the school.

The other school is very diverse, lots of black children and children who aren't black. I probably like it a little less because it's got less going on and I think my child's personality is a better match for the other school. But this school is still great.

Now, I'm asking parents with children who can relate either in terms of ethnicity or other minority characteristic, how is your child at school, and would you do anything differently, whatever you did? Did you even think about it? Should I even think about it. Are there other questions I should be asking?

My parents say I should think about it, just as they did, but that they supported me at home (that's very true) and this helped me (true, but sometimes things were still very hard!) and that my child will do well in any school.

I want good support for my child as she becomes more aware of 'race' and racism. There's no point in denying it, I want to meet this head on and make sure my child doesn't grow up believing silly ideas about black inferiority and I want her to be supported in being critical about what appear to be social facts which are really racist forces being exhibited in family structures, the criminal justice system, education, work, media, medicine, life in general!

I'd love your thoughts if you are having similar conundrums.

From a teaching perspective, my advice echoes that of previous posters.

In my experience, minority children seem to develop their individualism in teaching environments where they are not part of a large minority group.

Once a child was placed in a class, say, where everyone else was from their background and heritage, conformity to certain ways of behaving and seeing began to develop - to the detriment of each individual child.

I saw this a lot across ethnic and religious lines, and I think it's something to really consider.

Packing Soap, that's so interesting!

No, I'd consider private secondary. I believe there is much mire potential harm done in secondary and peer influence is far stronger vs home in that age group. So.I'd want more parental control over school via my money in secondary. Crude, but my way of thinking....

Ok fair enough re secondary private. You're right, especially for black boys in inner city London...shocking really. Seems like things are getting worse.

My husband and I are thinking private primary in order to lay down certain values and a solid academic foundation in the midst of like minded families. Where we live in SE London I'm afraid there is too much variance and I'd prefer a homogenous school in terms of family attitudes to working and studying hard. the plan is then to move out to Kent for grammar. I guess if we planned to stay in London it would have to be the other way around (state primary, private secondary) as I would not risk my child's future in state secondary. As you rightly say, more potential harm and negative peer influences.

Yes.

I will say that a friend's sister just had a disastrous experience of racism at one of the most coveted private boys' schools (pre-prep) in SE London and the response was terrible. She had to threaten criminal action to get anything done for her boy.

So I really don't know.

my children are in the minority at school as the vast majority are from another European country and have a different common language. We are white British. The children do experience racism in school but not based on colour/looks. they are excluded through language in some cases, they aren't invited to parties as they don't speak the language. many parents don't mix or only mix partially. You would walk round the school and think that the children who look different were the only minorities but in reality that isn't the case. I suspect this is quite common in many cities in the UK now. I haven't experienced the problem and differences you obviously did growing up, even with the support of your family so I can't comment on those but I would say go for the school which will best provide for her personality and academic ability.

I've been thinking about these messages a lot - thank you.

The school in SE London and racism - in moving your child is it a case of fresh start, or that you think things will be different elsewhere, or another reason given the understanding that there is racism everywhere, even from other black people / children?

About children conforming to behaviours of the similar and majority ethnic group. I'm thinking that if there is a majority BAME school and it's v well performing, that conformity might be a good thing?

Can you tell me more about black children at private primary / prep schools? My prejudice is that elite places are just as racist, sometimes more.

As a disclaimer I'm state educated, but read for undergrad at Oxbridge. I'm not sure I would have wanted to grown up around the people I met there......

So this week my daughter came home wanting 'new' hair like her teacher's and a one of the two white girls in her class.

Glad it's just before Christmas. I've biught her the black annie film, rachel isadora's repunzel book etc.

I'm also resolved to never straighten my hair again (seldom do anyway), but notice that when I do it's for special occasions - wrong message entirely. Got to lead by example. We've got beautiful women on the walls. We constantly praise her (which is hard to do without saying her hair and skin is 'better').

What other practical measures have people had success with?

The girl is so beautiful, honestly.

Aaaarrrggghhhh

No direct experience, sorry, but as a white British mother to a white son who has always attended nursery and now reception where the ethnicity of children has been vast, we have never experienced or heard of racism or being left out going on, thank God. It saddens me that it still exists.
My son has also never referred to any one by their skin colour, and it did worry me with him being young that he may because its something kids would pick up on and he is in the minority. We have always supported inclusion and for him as long as he likes to play with them they are all his friend.

Sorry I have no direct experience but from a mom of a son who attends reception at a school where he is considered a minority we have had no issues. I am actually delighted how they make every effort to celebrate all the cultural days of the year and pride for who we are.

I hope you find a school you are happy with

Show her how versatile her hair is. Braid it, twist it, cornrows etc at one point I did African threading for my daughter, she was btw 4 and 6 when I did this. Super cute and she got a lot of compliments.

It is also a non toxic way to straighten our hair type.i did it to ease manipulation not because straight is better. Stopped it now as she can cope with me manipulating her hair.

NEVER imply straight hair is better, she might come to that conclusion herself but at least the message hasn’t come from you. Don’t over emphasise her beauty in an over the top way. If you buy glossy magazines (vogue, Cosmo etc) stop it. Basically anything with zero positive representation, avoid.

My daughter has watched Annie (the black Annie) over and over again. She had also watched Matilda too and Madeline repeatedly. Anything with a strong female lead that isn’t too focussed on looks.

Personally, I went natural, ditched my wigs and completely changed my tv viewing. Good luck.

You need to lead by example. My hair has been natural for 10 years way before my DD was born. We do daily morning affirmations when getting dressed for school. The affirmations cover other areas but I make sure hair, race and skin colour are included. You could search for some age appropriate books on Amazon that talk about the beauty of natural African hair. I plan to gift my DD with one of the books on her birthday next year when she turns 7.

I totally agree with the comment above on ditching certain magazines.

Round here the schools are VERY white
but the languages are many
a school down the way has over 50 nationalities
melting pot schools are the best I'd have thought as then there is less of a "dominant" view

Thank you all,

Good insights. Thanks.

I've never permed my hair and in last 5 years might have pressed it 4-5 times, maybe less as time flies. I've never had glossy mags. Too many ads. Never quite understood the draw of them, but did buy that eninnful vogue pull out black/brown cover a few months back actually for my daughters.

Daily affirmations sound good - can I ask what sorts of things you say?

I don't watch much tv and I'm so busy during the day, none in front of the kids, only get a chance when they're sleeping, but their maternal grandma loves eastenders etc, I'll talk to her about it.....

My ds goes to what many, including Tatler, would consider properly posh private prep school. He is the only white British born child in a class of 18. There are more white British kids in other classes, but the couple of white kids in his class are European, and every one else is of Asian or Black heritage. As we live in a very white area in the home counties I was at the beginning a bit surprised and feared he would feel different. His teacher is a lovely black lady, too. The school is amazing though, very caring, and he fitted in just well. He doesn't seem to realize the differences. It has just become the case that people of all ethnical backgrounds now have the means to access what maybe just 10 or 20 years ago were 'pillars of the white British establishment'. Some parents in my son's class have moved all the way from China or Nigeria for their son to attend the school, with the Father often still running the family firm in their home country. So my ds is not only the only white British, but also the poorest, as I and dh have a normal professional background. Many boys from his class are aiming for Eton which nowadays is also very diverse, much more so than other private and state schools. It makes for lovely small talk among parents as there are real stories to the question 'where do you come from!'

My son is the only East European (aka "Polish", despite we are not Polish) child in his class, in a well regarded state primary in SE. There are no ethnic minority children in his class, and one in a parallel class. The level of stereotyping from both parents and teachers is unbelievable (and I am not a special snowflake or easily offended kind of person). I will be switching to a private prep next year.

This is why id go with the diverse school any day. Black children need black peers and role models in my opinion. For me (I’m white) this was hugely important for my son. He is now in a very diverse school. It’s been the making of him. His reception teacher was black, his y1 teacher mixed race. His peers are from all over the world. If he gets into trouble I have never ever had to wonder if that is due to prejudice. As I’m sure many mothers of black boys know, this is very rare. It has given me peace of mind. His school reflects London. Ramadan, Dewali, Hanukkah is all normal to him. He has theee best friends one is French (white) one Nigerian and one Korean. It’s just wonderful.

Hi samosamo

Pls could you pm me the name of the pre prep in se London you mentioned above so that I can avoid...

I’ve followed this post with great my interest as I am having my first child next year and starting to plan where to move to for schools etc or if we are going to have to save every penny and send them private...

I went to school in south London in the 90s in a predominantly black school but experienced a lot of colourism... thank god for a strong family that taught me what I was experiencing at school wasn’t ‘normal’. From what I see as I am still close to the area I grew up and from social media, the colourism issue may actual be worse now.

So for me home life, extended family, cultural traditions etc are what I want to teach my child so that they can be knowledgeable and proud of their heritage because I’ve learnt that just because someone looks like you doesn’t necessarily mean they are your ally...

regarding hair - don't overthink it too much. I have very curly hair, both my daughters are at primary school, one daughter has very curly hair and the other has poker straight hair. Both want to try the opposite. Both want to try having different hair to be like Jane or Michelle at school, both comment on hair colours they like on classmates. I think it is just a normal part of growing up rather than wanting to change who they are if that makes sense. I agree with comments about just make her hair type seem normal and natural and "right" (I never straighten my hair) so hopefully my curly girly is growing up seeing curly hair as normal and beautiful (she is the only girl in her year with really curly hair) but equally I try not to see her wanting to see what it would look like straighter as anything other than wanting to try wearing it in plaits because Sarah does or wanting a bob one week because Lauren has one. Does that make sense.

I got her a book about curly hair off amazon. trying desperately to remember the name. My hair is so happy I think it was. the drawings include girls of all races and hair colours and types of curl. it is for youngish girls and I think it made her accept being a bit different and seeing it as positive. The fact her straight haired sister is desperate to have ringlets made me realise it isn't always about fitting in either.

You sound like you are doing all the right things to build her self esteem and confidence in her abilities and her looks. Please don't worry you aren't.

My kids are not white.
We live in S London and all the schools that we could have chosen are very diverse, truly diverse with a diversity of diversity.
All are now at secondary and they and their friends are articulate about the value of being in a mixed group, economically as well as racially, nationality and religion.

I would have been reluctant to send my kids to a school where they were a tiny minority. As it was I was disappointed by the lack of diversity on the staff (better at secondary).

As long as there is a level of diversity and they will not be ‘exposed’ send them to the school you prefer on its merits.

Feel free to disregard my comment because I'm a white parent of white children... I'm also a primary teacher in SE London and have, over the years, sometimes been the only white British person in my classroom (the children generally representing a brilliant melting pot of Nigerian, Somali, Tamil, Jamaican, Polish, Algerian, Bulgarian and all sorts of mixes).

I would choose the school that you feel best matches your aspirations for your child whether that's related to how you see teachers and children interact with one another, if it's to do with provision of music lessons or sporting opportunities, the variety of festivals that are celebrated, the emphasis placed (or not) on homework and/or Y6 test results etc. If you're likely to send your child to a London school, look at how well the school's intake reflects the ethnicities of your local area. I love that my DCs' primary seems to mirror the mix of ethnicities locally, as does DC1's secondary but I know of schools only a couple of streets away that do not have intakes that reflect the mix in the same way.

Difference is a thing that all children pick up on and many need to be helped to celebrate it whether it's their own difference or someone else's. I've mentioned this before on MN but DD1 attended our very diverse, local primary for reception. She was the only white child in the class and both the teacher and nursery nurse were black. DD1 rarely commented on it until Black History Month became the main topic of their learning. She hated her blue eyes, white skin and boring hair, came home feeling responsible for apartheid (aged not yet 5) and wanting to celebrate Divali. Although I'm certain it wasn't intended to be unkind or racist, the other parents referred to her as 'the white girl' and if it was a cover teacher dismissing the children at home time, DD1 was given to any white person waiting near the door, without asking who that adult was collecting. I appreciate that this is nothing like the overt, and less overt, racism that black people experience but it wasn't really until DD1 asked, "when will someone like me join the class?" that I grasped just how different she felt. I suppose my point is that being 'the white girl' in a class of a limited number of ethnicities left her feeling as though she didn't really belong. She ultimately transferred to another local school (which had been our first choice) where the class was much more mixed, with a broader range of ethnicities, a mix of family set ups and where she was one of two children with blue eyes.

Cry me a river SE13Mummy. Your daughter is part of a majority group in the UK and a dominant group in the world at large. She sees positive representations about her group all the time. Her feelings about apartheid shows she has empathy. We black people regardless of age bear the crimes of one black person and it is a constant battle to shake the feeling of responsibility that comes with being a minority or someone from an oppressed group.

how can you even equate the 2 situations?

Sorry Nneoma, I wasn't trying to equate the two situations - I do get that it's completely different. I was actually trying to communicate that my child, who as you've pointed out is part of a majority group in the UK, had experienced a situation in which she was the sole person of her ethnicity in her class at school. Seeing ones own culture, ethnicity and beliefs represented and celebrated at school is important for all children and although I maybe didn't express that clearly, I was trying to encourage the OP to look at schools that do this, rather than limiting resources, displays, books, toys, celebrations etc to one or two dominant groups. Sorry.

Havent rtft but please take the best school. Take the middle class school and the values it imparts. I went to a 90% asian comprehensive and the intra-asian racism was excessive and disruptive. Especially at cricket time. Or political events in parents countries. It also started from an early age and was riled on by the parents. The famiies were not poor at all - comfortable enough but somehow anti-education (books are messy etc!!!!). Business skills (ripping people off) was prized. For an academic child making good allies was very hard 🙁. That said, brilliant teachers from all over the country despite it being an average comp couldnt override the disinterest of most pupils though

Sorry if I'm missing the point, but haven't you missed the application deadline for 2019 entry? You might be left with little choice, if that's the case.

Just to add, my mixed race dd went to an incredibly diverse primary school, which was brilliant - so many different backgrounds and cultures! Her secondary school is significantly less diverse (predominantly white but still a reasonable mix), not least because many of the children from ethnic minorities at her primary school went on to to the local private school instead.

DD has been equally happy in both schools, and has not experienced racism in either, although her dad has in the local community. DD very often gets picked for stuff and has loads of friends from a range of different backgrounds. It seems to me that she feels completely at ease with her own identity.

Personally, I'd go with the school that you think is best overall.