Spelling/grammar mistakes on schools' leaflets: a biggie or not?

[ItalianPoster]

I’d need some perspective here, please. We are visiting local primary schools and have noticed many schools have spelling or grammar mistakes on their websites and in their leaflets. The most common I have come across are writing “it’s” instead of “its” and “you’re” instead of “your”. To my foreign eyes, these mistakes are atrocious. However, I’d like some perspective from native speakers: are these mistakes as horrible as I find them? Are they considered not a big deal? Why/how / to what extent/ etc. This is not a rant - I am genuinely interested in the perspective of native speakers.

The reason I am asking, and the reason I am worried, is because I am concerned it may be a sign that teachers lack the most basic skills they are supposed to teach our children; primary school teachers don’t need to be Nobel prize physicists, but if a teacher said that 2+2 = 5 or struggled to multiply or divide by 10, then I’d be worried how he/she could possibly teach basic maths to children. My concern with its vs it’s is the same. Of course AFAIK a secretary, and not teachers, may have written those things, but, still…

I understand that, when typing quickly, you could skip one letter, type one letter twice, mix the order of two letters, etc. However, I do not understand how you can possibly even think of using an apostrophe when one is not needed; keyboard layouts may change, but on no keyboard is the apostrophe so close to the other letters that typing it might be a typing error – I think you’d have to deliberately look for it. This suggests the people who wrote that stuff are not familiar with the difference between a verb (it’s / you’re) and a possessive pronoun or adjective (its / your). I understand grammar is constantly evolving, I understand there may be different opinions on some of the more arcane rules, but this seems pretty black or white to me.

Thoughts? Thanks!

I'm foreign and often wonder how punctuation is taught in the UK; so many British people seem to see it as optional.

Many of my highly educated British friends would struggle to define a pronoun or give you an example of a modal verb. However, most of them still have excellent written English so it's not as straightforward as needing to understand grammatical rules to use them correctly, it's also something that can be picked up through reading.

I totally agree.

DH is a perfect example - he writes beautifully, but couldn't define an adverb or pronoun to save his life. It seems to be an instinctive thing for him, probably picked up (as you say) from extensive reading.

Lee Miller that's really interesting thank you.

Pumpkin, I love the perfectly used semi colon.
I think there are two issues. Less formal writing is becoming more accepted, which may be a good thing. But this coupled with most of a generation who don't know the basics is dangerous.

I've started ignoring the apostrophe in it's for it is. Mainly because I rely on my phone to add them and if it doesn't I can't be bothered. However I only do it for people who know I have good grammar when I'm not on my phone!

My cousin's child left his nursery with a 'graduation ceremony' (a whole new level of wrong I won't bother to go into) in July. The nursery gave each child a picture in their graduation outfit with a frame bearing the legend 'your off to great places'. Better places than that nursery, I hope! These frames had all been professionally made. I was horrified but it seems I was the only person to even notice. I don't care that my cousin's spelling and grammar is dreadful and I don't care about that for most people, to be honest. However those who are teaching our children should be teaching them correctly.

Thus was a problem at my DC's primary school and I also noticed several excess apostrophes and homophone errors during a GCSE presentation at DS's grammar school last week.

I was born in 1972 and teaching of grammar during my school years was virtually non existent. I would estimate 80% of my colleagues (in a well rewarded professional environment) have pretty poor spelling and understanding of how to use apostrophes in particular. Even top management (so people earning £200k+). It doesn't seem to be a priority any more and obviously the problem will spiral given those now teaching don't have great SPAG skills themselves.

Those of us who care (me!) are in a minority. I don't think you can avoid it OP.

And I agree, I learned accurate SPAG through reading so I still can't explain any rules.

There was a period of time (I'm mid 30's and I was part of this wave) in education where grammar wasn't really taught at all.

I’m in my 60s and the only grammar I have ever been taught was in French and German classes; it was understood that we would learn grammar by reading ‘The Mill on the Floss’ and other classics. Most of us read ‘Jackie’ and ‘Fab208’ instead, do it didn’t work too well.

SharpLilly, your brain might not work like that, but mine unfortunately does! I occasionally make homophone errors (usually when instant messaging) despite fully knowing the difference and the mistake being glaringly obvious to me if I so much as glance at the text again. I don't make this mistake with apostrophes for possession, only contractions, and it only happens with the simplest, most common homophones (perhaps those I learnt first?). The grammatical rules are internalised so I'm not thinking about them consciously (which I might when writing in a foreign language), and it's not down to confusion about meaning or a clumsy typo like writing theri instead of their would be (and I'm also guilty of those), in my case at least. Similarly, I edit manuscripts and often come across this type of homophone error where the writer has chosen the correct word in 99% of cases, so clearly knows the difference. Non-native speakers rarely make this type of mistake. Having said that, most of the time you see it's instead of it's I do think the writer just doesn't know any better, sadly.

italianPoster , that's an interesting question. If you want them to write well, then reading as widely as possible is the single most important thing, I think. Encourage them to think about language and the impression it gives as well as character and plot. In terms of grammatical knowledge and understanding, if your kids are young I'd be less concerned as English grammar is on the curriculum nowadays (though nowhere near Italian levels!), which should also help them with learning foreign languages. Not sure about Italian - if you're bilingual can you pick up something like the congiutivo (breaks out in cold sweat) from reading and listening, or will they need to study it like they do in Italian schools?

Grammatical errors do wind me up, but the point at which I’d raise something with the school would be the point when they taught something that was incorrect, or changed my child’s correct answer to make it incorrect.

I’m another one from the generation for whom grammar wasn’t really taught in school, and I’m therefore unable to deconstruct a sentence and label model verbs, passive voice, present imperfect, subjunctive etc. However, I was taught the basics (use of the apostrophe, your/you’re, their/there/they’re etc), and I have always read widely and seem to have worked out for myself how to construct a sentence and how to spell. No doubt I’ll have made some mistakes, which other pedants are welcome to point out 😊

My daughter (aged 7) shows a similar ability to learn from what she reads, though she will learn a lot more grammar in today’s curriculum. I'm looking forward to learning these labels with her!

It’s interesting how much of this seems down to luck. I could always spell, and my DD’s correct spelling and punctuation choices seem to be instinctive, yet there are thousands of children across the country grinding through spelling lists for tests and then forgetting them, or repeatedly confusing its with it’s. Presumably those children, and the adults that struggled as children, are always going to find spelling/grammar somewhat challenging, while us pedants look on somewhat superciliously.

It’s so easy to judge other people by what you’re good at!

modal verbs!

and it only happens with the simplest, most common homophones (perhaps those I learnt first?)

I do it, even with words where they are only homophones now, and weren't homophones for me when I was a child. I did wants/once today for example, that's a homophone that has only arrived recently in my life.

They are errors, and they do matter in formal communication, so you have every right to complain about formal communication that gets it wrong. It's just not a grammar/spelling mistake, that says anything about the grammar abilities of the author, it's a failure to proof-read after a transcription, so it's only important if it's in a document that should have been proof read. School website yes, quick email just to you to say little Tommy scratched his arm, not important.

That's interesting SirFred, I hadn't thought about what constitutes a homophone for us (and therefore subsequent transcription errors) changing as your accent shifts.

I agree with PP that the mistakes worth making a fuss about are those in formal communication, and errors on worksheets or classroom posters.

For me this is bringing up questions I've had before but don't really have any answers too. Simply that the whole homophone thing makes no sense to me whatsoever - they're different words, it just doesn't make sense etc. But I think it's something about how different people deal with words inside their head. For example the idea that you can write bear instead of bare because they sound the same, therefore somehow while writing you must be hearing what you write in your head first to do that.

That just doesn't happen to me. I don't really know how to explain it. I've made and still do make plenty of errors while writing - not usually grammar or spelling but regular typos as I'm shit at typing and, as I think I mentioned, I'm currently writing on a very dodgy keyboard - but I'm pretty certain none of those errors have ever been homophones. I don't hear the word itself as I'm writing, I hear the meaning of what I'm saying instead. Does that make any sense? Could it be that different people's brains handle words in these two completely different ways?

As another example, my mother will comment that even if I'm writing a short, very basic text message on my telephone, I make the steps to capitalise and add apostrophes where necessary, even though it takes longer and I might be in a hurry, but I don't believe it's because I'm a pedant. I just couldn't not do it because to me the words wouldn't make sense otherwise.

I'm sure there must be a scientific explanation for this which I simply don't yet understand and would love it if someone could explain it. If you can correct a homophone while proofreading you clearly understand the difference between the words and their meanings, but the way my brain works I still don't see how the mistake can happen in the first place because, as someone else said upthread, our brains work differently. It's something I believe could be useful to understand when it comes to teaching children and helping them to learn in the way most suited to them.

I've done on in that post - too for to, thanks to my sticky 'o'! Serves me right!

Need to also add that my screen is disgustingly dirty, making it difficult to errors, both mine and those of others. I am ashamed.

And there's on instead of one. Dear God, I must get a new laptop. Also because this one doesn't charge unless I hold the cable into the socket, causing a lot of one handed typing full of errors.

Different people definitely process words- to-type differently; and also differently when it is words to handwriting! For example, I have no problem handwriting “this morning...”. But when I first used email/ text type communication I kept typing “the”, and then realising my brain wanted to type “smorning”, which is obviously how my head hears it! You see this if you watch live subtitling- these are skilled people, but there is often a “sound” error, usually quickly corrected. I suspect younger people, who have learnt typing earlier, may process it more like handwriting and be less prone to such errors.

It’s/ its is (and I had to override my autocorrect there!), is, when not an autocorrect, a type of over-correction. Jen’s hat, Bob’s pen use the apostrophe for possession, so people reason that “ it’s lid”, for example, should follow the same rule. They don’t make the connection with his pen, her hat, as those words don’t have the extra s, whereas its does. Does that make sense?!

For me it depends.
Something that could be a typo doesn't bother me.

A couple of small mistakes doesn't bother me (like it's/its or small spelling error)

Riddled with mistakes I really don't like. And I have a particular dislike of would of/could of etc. That type of error which they clearly think is correct and can't be an accident or not thinking properly at the moment I really think is appalling.

When one of my dc went on a residential in year 6 they put reports on what had happened daily on the website. One of the days it was badly written. Spelling mistakes, major grammar errors etc. I read it thinking that the child who wrote it could have done with getting a teacher to check it before publishing it on the website as it really reflected badly on their teaching.
At the bottom it had the head's name as the author.
Never have I been so close to sending something in with green red pen over the correction.

SharpLily, there are undoubtedly different ways of processing language, and it's something teachers should bear in mind. For me writing is definitely transcription and I do think in some way I hear the words first. I'm far less likely to make homophone mistakes when writing by hand because I have more time to 'see' the word rather than just 'hear' it. That's only the case with English though, for example I have good French but I'm not completely fluent, and I wouldn't ever confuse homophones (e.g. aux/eau or cent/sent/sans) when writing. In fact, I had to think quite hard to even some up with examples of homophones in French as my brain doesn't associate them at all - the meaning and spelling come before the sound.

“Jen’s hat, Bob’s pen use the apostrophe for possession, so people reason that “ it’s lid”, for example, should follow the same rule.”
You have actually just reminded me that we (partner and I) once looked at a couple of English GCSE books in a bookstore and were absolutely horrified at how shallow the material seemed. There was an explanation of “it’s” vs “its” along these very lines, i.e. it omitted any reference to the distinction between a verb and a possessive pronoun or adjective. It almost made it seem as writing “its” without the apostrophe was some kind of exception.

A quick google search and this has come up: www.ocr.org.uk/Images/348009-the-little-book-of-spelling-punctuation-and-grammar-spag-.pdf
Page 19 has a section on it’s vs its. It states:
“
It’s with an apostrophe always means it is or it has.
Its without an apostrophe always means “belonging to it”
[…]
Its without an apostrophe is a possessive pronoun, meaning “belonging to it”. It is in the same group of words as: My Your her […]
“
I don’t even know where to start – it’s all so wrong! The concept is not explained by mentioning the functional difference between a verb and a possessive pronoun or adjective, let alone that between pronouns and adjectives! And this is on a GCSE book , so it seems to me that not much grammar is taught, after all!

Also, the last two sentences are wrong: “its” can be either a possessive adjective or a possessive pronoun. “my”, “your”, etc” are possessive ADJECTIVES, not pronouns. FFS! Mine and yours are pronouns. With “its”, the word is the same for both the pronoun and the adjective, but this doesn’t mean that pronouns and adjectives should be confused!

The school has received its Ofsted report --> its = possessive adjective.
I don’t agree with the school’s report; mine was very thorough, its wasn’t; its = possessive pronoun

WHAT IS THIS BOOK? IS THIS SOMETHING PUPILS USE TO PREPARE FOR GCSE? ARE STUDENTS STUDYING ENGLISH GRAMMAR ON BOOKS WHICH ARE BLATANTLY WRONG???
Is OCR, which published this PDF, one of the companies which creates and marks GCSEs and A levels? www.ocr.org.uk/about/explaining-examining/

On the actual question, the answer is that it would almost certainly be admin staff. I'm school admin and I would be mortified if I put out something like this; but I equally have sympathy. Many admin staff wouldn't have the educational background to have spag skills of the highest order - not surprising when they're paid bugger all and are chiefly recruited for their organisational not their literacy skills. Yes, of course these things should be proof read - but the fact is, schools have no money and no time, and ultimately Heads will put other totally essential things ahead of really important things, however hard a decision that is. As for teachers' spag - I do agree it's important, but equally the most amazing teacher I have ever met is dyslexic and frequently makes spag mistakes. Nobody cares because she's extraordinary. That said, it does irritate me that not one of the teachers in my school can use practice/practise properly...

Just as an illustration of the lack of grammar education. I have straight A*'s at GCSE, Straight A's at A-level a 1st class degree and PhD (although in a STEM subject but obviously involved writing a thesis) and have no idea what homophones, modal verbs, subjunctives etc are (actually I just looked them all up but I'll have probably forgotten again soon enough). I do think I can use apostrophes correctly (although make silly errors sometimes), but other than that I'm sure I'm making embarrassing mistakes fairly often.

There is a growing belief that text speak and shorter methods of written communication are necessary these days. Contractions such as ‘ur’ for ‘your’ are increasingly commonplace and increasingly irritating to me. Many people would have us believe that, as long as you can get the gist of the text, spelling, grammar and punctuation are unimportant. I disagree. The criticism is that caring about such things is pedantic.

I think it matters. I will always think it matters and it annoys me intensely that official documentation is often so badly worded and incorrect. I spoke to a dental surgery about their notice, which stated ‘Patient’s parking area’. I enquired whether they were expecting only one patient. It was never corrected.

I have seen banks, councils, companies and universities with online material with punctuation and spelling mistakes. I would not worry unduly, although it is rather careless.